4,671 thoughts on “Comments Page

  1. hi again mom, i hope that should you start feeling quite alone you will come back now & then… i think that worse than forever being ill is feeling all alone in it with no one to talk to, i couldnt take the isolation and realized i couldnt make it without some connection to others who understand becoz they are there too…

    i hope that even tho your family is concerned you may be doing yourself more harm than good by trying to stay connected to what is going on, that at least they will understand your need to remain connected with other people sharing similar life experiences…

    prayers & hugs… h.

  2. I am visiting my family for christmas. I had been waiting months to show them the wrinkles on my arms, thinking ok heres’s something I can actually show them. They’ll understand now. They’ll see. They’ll actually believe me instead of just humor me. They basically laughed saying oh its just aging and then got angry when I tried to get them to consider the wrinkles weren’t there in June. God how I wish I had taken pics before the wrinkles.

    Everyone is in denial or doesn’t care or I don’t know what. What the he’ll do people need to see to understand what’s going on here?

    I get it now. I’m on my own with this one. And people are doomed.

  3. @E,

    You’re not alone on this. Many people up here have this virus. I meet someone with this everyday. People naturally are not going to believe you until they get this themselves. The problem is that since no news or doctors openly talk about it, no one will believe it since it’s like something from a bad science fiction movie.

  4. my hart wont stop palpating fuck i feel it beat all day almost lke a hart attack pens and needles alover with hart palpitations

    REPLY: Heart palpitations (tachycardia) are frightening, but not generally dangerous. Only arrhythmia has a danger associated with it.

    – Hip

  5. unk i used to get bad palpitations,i believe it was my bodies response to something going on as ive sort of come to terms with being ill like this the paplitations have gone away.daveyboy.

  6. I have just sent out to everyone an email regarding the very good results I am getting with Saccharomyces boulardii. Check your inboxes…

  7. I am happy to tell of my complete remission (maybe cure) from CFS. I haven’t had any symptoms for almost 8 months, but still working on repairing damage from 10 years of illness. Along with antivirals and antibiotics for CPn and EBV infections, I was taking methylation promoters, immune booster and antioxidant supplements for about two years. Also had mercury-silver fillings removed, and chelated heavy metals. It’s possible others things I was doing helped me, but taking the combination of Inosine, DMAE seemed to have a very positive effect. This blogger http://cfsendeavor.blogspot.com/ did a lot of research into Inosine, and the similarities to Immunovir, linked to this patent: http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=EqQnAAAAEBAJ

    Immunovir (also known as Imunovir, Isoprinosine and Inosine Pranobex) is a combination of Inosine and DiMethylAminoIsoPropanol (DMAIP). DMAE is DiMethylAminoEthanol. DMAIP and DMAE are both similar amino alcohols, so taking Inosine with DMAE is very similar to Immunovir but only costs only about $21/month and is available off the shelf or internet in the US. Immunovir is prescribed in Europe for CFS and as an antiviral, and boosts Natural Killer Cells of the immune system. I was never tested for XMRV, but maybe the combination of Inosine/DMAE/L-Arginine is an effective antiviral for XMRV?

    I don’t understand everything in the patent linked above to know the exact RNA anti-transcription effect of the ingredients.

    I took Inosine first at two different times for 2-3 months each with a slight improved feeling, then added DMAE in later and took both for about a year, 2-3 months at a time, once for 6 months straight, with 1-3 week breaks between. I was taking Inosine 2x 1000 mg each morning (from Ultimate Nutrition and Source Naturals), sometimes another 2000 mg before dinner. I was taking ‘Source Naturals’ 351 mg DMAE 2x day, and at some point also started taking ‘Vitamin Shoppe’ 2000mg L-Arginine/L-Ornithine once per day.

    If anyone else wanted to try this, start slowly with smaller doses and add one supplement at a time. Also take glutathione promoters/ liver protectives like NAC or milk thistle, and dietary fiber to bind and help eliminate any die-off toxins. Some people cannot tolerate DMAE-possibly the methylation or detox system needs to be functioning or supported first. Inosine promotes uric acid so anyone with gout should also not take it.

    REPLY: Nice to hear from you Doug. Thanks so much for that info, it is appreciated. (Doug’s original comments on this blog date back to March 2009).

    It is always very nice to hear when someone defeats CFS; it is encouraging.

    Here are the links to the inosine+DMAE info on the blog that you mentioned:

    Testing the Inosine+DMAE formula

    Immunovir versus Inosine Revisited, Part 1

    Immunovir versus Inosine Revisited, Part 2

    This inosine+DMAE combination seems very interesting. I did try the inosine supplement on its own for short periods of a few weeks, but never for longer periods. And I did not realize that you need to use inosine+DMAE in order to make it act like the very safe antiviral drug Immunovir (but as you say, for a tiny fraction of the price of Immunovir).

    But now I am definitely going to try this inosine+DMAE combination pronto.

    Well, I am very excited about trying that!

    Here is Dr Cheney’s protocol for taking Immunovir; I guess the same will apply to taking inosine+DMAE:

    Week one, take 6 tablets a day, Monday through Friday, and none on the weekend. Week two, take 2 tablets a day, Monday through Friday, and none on the weekend. Repeat this cycle. But do not treat every month. Do two months on and then one month off of this “pulsing” dose. This medicine works best when you do not treat regularly. If you treat continuously at the same dose, it stops working. It is an immune modulator, and Dr. Cheney suspects all immuno-modulators are like this. If taken continuously they stop working. The dose must vary so the immune system never knows what to expect.

    I remember I did feel very slight more depressed every time I started taking inosine; but perhaps this is an unavoidable side effect in my case. It won’t stop me from trying this inosine+DMAE combo. (Interferon therapy for CFS also causes depression, but nevertheless, interferon often puts CFS into remission).

    I found this: Simple Methylation Treatment Protocol for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.

    Is this the sort of methylation protocol you recommend?

    – Hip

  8. By the way, Doug, how long were you taking L-Arginine for, roughly? Any sense of how much L-Arginine might have contributed to the recovery?

  9. so guys im convinced i have htlv1/2 mylopathy tsp/ham for i have every symptom ive read it can occure as fast as 3 months after infection im going too ask for a spinal tap on my nexy appointment for htlv1/2 pcr the only thing that does’nt make sence is how hard it is for men to catch it from female but im guess iing anything is possable so its worth a shot a diagnoses would be great its wierd how no dr has not even looked for this enev infectious disease dr’s i live in south east us so its very possable this is the problem i just hope if it is im one of the lucky one that respond well to trreat ment most however dont with htlv 1/2.. any thought

  10. Hi Doug, How did you originally catch your virus? Thanks

    REPLY: I was re-reading Doug’s earlier comments just now: he was first made ill from industrial exposure to considerable quantities of toxic mold, which he theorizes may have weakened his immune system enough to allow some infectious pathogens latent in his body to spread and take hold.

    Doug’s original comment from March 17, 2009 is here.

    – Hip

  11. I took Folapro and Folic Acid, Biotin, B12, TMG, Sam-e similar to the Simplied ‘Yasko’ Methylation protocol. Another good methylation cycle explanation is here:


    The supplements I was taking (2/2009) when I started to get better:

    Inosine 2x 1000 mg each morning, sometimes another 2000 mg before dinner (anti viral, immune booster)

    DMAE 351 mg am, sometimes pm (opens cell walls for Inosine to increase penetration)

    L-Arginine 1250 mg-Ornithine 750 mg am & pm (allows Inosine to persist in body longer)

    NAC 2x 600 mg am & pm (protects liver, promotes glutathione – possibly increases hypoxia)

    NADH 5 mg am (increases ATP production)


    and http://www.whatislife.com/reader2/Metabolism/pathway/no.html

    SAM-e 200 mg am

    Multivitamin am

    Astragalus 2x 500 mg am & pm until I run out, then take a break (immune booster)

    TMG 1000 mg am (Betaine – decreases homocystein, needed with B vitamins, possibly needed with DMAE)

    Supergreen ‘Perfect Food”(alkalizer, fiber)

    Vitamin A 1000 iu am & pm

    Vitamin B12 5000 mg am

    Vitamin C 1000 mg 3x day

    Vitamin E mixed 400 iu am

    Vitamin E Tocotrienols 125 mg pm

    Milk Thistle Extract 300 mg am & pm (protects liver, promotes glutathione)

    Horney Goat Weed 1000 mg 2x am (vasodialator)

    ‘Source Naturals Life Minerals’ ( incl 40 mcg iodine) am & pm

    Acetyl-L-Carnitine 500 mg 1x day (I stopped when I found it lowers thyroid function)


    CoQ-10 100 mg am

    Alpha Lipoic Acid 100 mg w/ 333 mg Biotin am & pm – don’t take until clear of heavy metals)

    Fish Oil(450 mg EPA, 300 mg DHA) am & pm

    5-HTP pm

    Melatonin 3 mg pm

    If you eat a lot of fish or have silver/amalgam (50% mercury) teeth fillings, you should be tested for heavy metals first and get rid of them if levels are high.


    Many vitamins, Alpha Lipoic Acid, and antibiotics act as heavy metal chelators. If your bodies toxin elimination is functioning poorly or overloaded, metals get reabsorbed in your gut, redeposited throughout your body and brain. The metals alone can cause CFS symptoms, anxiety, brain fog. Taking dietary fiber after taking supplements can help absorb and bind toxins to help eliminate.

    REPLY: That is very interesting that with astragalus too, you are following an on / off regimen, specifically because astragalus is an immune booster. This is a very valuable piece of information.

    In the light of this, I can now make sense of my previous experiences using astragalus: I always noticed there were some health gains each time I starting to take astragalus, but these gains would fade a little after a few weeks on astragalus. So this fading was probably due to my body getting used to the immune boosting effects astragalus, and compensating for it by toning down the immune response after a while.

    Next time I go back to astragalus, I will use a Dr Cheney-type immune booster protocol, say 5 days on, 2 days off with astragalus.

    By the way, astragalus is an IFN-alpha booster, and this study:

    Zinc Potentiates the Antiviral Action of Human IFN-alpha Tenfold

    would suggest that taking zinc supplements at the same time as astragalus should increase IFN-alpha antiviral potency by a factor of 10.

    Also NF-kB inhibitors like curcumin and grape seed extract can boost the antiviral effects of interferon, I believe.

    – Hip

  12. Hey everyone,

    I’m sorry that I have been so long to respond and that I will not have much time to write today but here I go anyways.

    I am so sick (no pun intended) of be discounted as a hypochondriac but I am sure that, soon, everyone will believe me. I have had tremendous trouble coming to grips with the fact that I am not to blame; I was convinced that I was the first person to contract this virus in my area and that I am responsible for everyone here having it now. Even if that is true, it is not my fault that I believed the numerous medical professionals telling me that I was fine. I am certain that a very large percent of the population here are now in the infantile stages of infection. I believe that Kevin Bieksa of the Vancouver Canucks has this as well as Kieth Ballard (likely others as well though not showing).


    I also saw this today; I saw the June/10 video first and noticed that the guy on the left definitely seemed to have the telltale throat-clearing. So I immediately went to look at their latest video to see he if did in fact still have the same thing. I could tell that he had become more “used” to it because it took until 5min30sec for him to make his first cough, his co-host notices how fast he is drinking his beer

    First: http://www.youtube.com/user/diggnation?blend=1&ob=4#p/u/76/eMgIxGyH6ds

    Second: http://www.youtube.com/user/diggnation?blend=1&ob=4#p/u/0/dyeBnvYl5jA

    It looks like this guy caught it at the South by SouthWest festival in Texas back in mid March/10 (right around when I caught it!). This shows me that the virus is making it’s way around North America right now and I cannot allow myself to feel guilty for having spread this to everyone though. Strangely enough though, his co-host does not seem to have the sore throat but he could be one of those who doesn’t. They do both complain of having particularly bad hang-overs recently.

    Anyways, I have no solutions, just the suggestion that, very soon, the majority of North Americans could have this infection and some scientific research may actually begin to find and give a name to this virus, whether it has been discovered or not.

    I have a theory, which I am sure that many of you will agree with or have already discussed in this forum, that this virus is increasing our rate of aging. The stress of this virus is speeding up our aging process to the point where our skin actually begins to wrinkle at a very young age. Someone I know who tells me that she has always had dry hands in the winter is having the worst winter she has ever had. I have begun to notice a very slight increase in the number of wrinkles around my knuckles and I am really not looking forward to how I am expecting this to progress.

    I think that the idea that this virus attacks our muscles may be very accurate because of the results of the biopsy that I had on the lumps in the back of my throat; the otolaryngologist told me that he was surprised to find that he had actually removed pieces of bone-muscle from my spine when he tore out three pieces of the back of my throat. Perhaps the virus starts in the throat, travels back to the spinal cord through our muscle, and then on through the nervous system to systematically take us down.

    I have had some very radical thoughts that I must share with you all; at this point, I have only run the idea by my Dad who still doesn’t believe in the severity of this infection that I have warned him about.

    Here it goes:

    I am not a religious person but I would like to call this “The God Virus”(not like the idea of religion infecting society). Let’s say that this is XMRV and that it could possibly become part of our genetics for the rest of human time on Earth like the other HERV’s we have. This virus doesn’t seem to want to kill us; I am sure that it would just love to find a way to live in symbiotic harmony with us instead. If there is no cure and our only solution is live our lives in the healthiest lifestyles possible, then it seems almost as if nature is whipping us into shape. It is ALMOST as if we are being punished for the disrespect that many of us have had for our own bodies for many generations. This virus may in fact kill off many people such as the elderly, the obese, the already sick. As morbid as it sounds, these people should not be alive; we are not supposed to live to be as old as we have been living to; people with natural born illness/disease/retardation are not supposed to survive, and those who drink/smoke/eat unhealthily are not deserving of their bodies. Only the strong/healthy/smart will survive but even they will have to change their behavior; we cannot breathe polluted air or eat anything but organic foods.

    Is it totally radical to think that, as much as it REALLY sucks to have this sickness, it could be for the overall good of humans and our ecology? As horrible, hypothetical, and hypocritical as it may sound, I think that many humans need to die in order for our future as a species to be safe. The idea that this virus may actually end up saving the human race from itself is why am choosing to call this “The God Virus”.

    On one hand, I am really hoping that this virus is curable and that I will feel normal again one day. On the other hand, I hope that this virus does make a dent in our population and our crappy lifestyles. Sometimes I think that the latter thought is entirely outrageous and that it could have arose in my mind from the so-called “powerful psychological changes” that we all agree that this virus induces.

    I recognize that these statements could really set some of you off in anger but please understand that I have this virus too and that I have felt many times like this virus will be the death of me.

    Wishing you all well, a Merry Xmas and happy New Year.



    REPLY: An interesting account, D, and I also had terribly worried thoughts about similar things; about the bigger picture. However, once you start to find the right supplements/medications for treating the anxiety symptoms at least, you then realize that these worries were kind of fueled by the tense mental state created by the inflammation in the brain, due to the viral infection. I still think think about this bigger picture now, but from a calmer perspective.

    In fact, the human species will be fine. The potency of natural evolutionary mechanisms will sort this problem out just on their own. We are in constant evolutionary flux, so even if this virus does become widespread, those people with a genetic makeup that confers more resistance to this virus will obviously be healthier and stronger than those that do not, and so more likely to go on to have children, and pass their resistant genes to the next generation. The human immune system has always been the fastest evolving part of our physical makeup – because infectious pathogens have pretty much always been the main enemy of mankind throughout our long history.

    Just thought I would provide some uplifting optimism for Christmas…

    – Hip

  13. i think its not just the people that are to blame for the crappy lifestyles its the government ect allowing the cigs to be sold fast food to be served and poor healthcare because lets face it health care is rubbish,cigs should be banned full stop and takeaways ect should should be accountable for whats bieng put in their food,alls well saying its peoples own choice but theres nothing like giving enough rope for one to hang ones self,of course it all boils down to one thing which is greed despite the fact we know cigarettes kill people for instance they are still legal why?so they can make money.daveyboy.

  14. Everyone here should look at the possibly they might have Q fever. That includes our friend “unk”.

    Symptoms of Q fever

    Q Fever: Symptoms

    Q fever is very contagious. But many cases of acute Q fever are asymptomatic or very mild, and go unnoticed; so for this reason, other members of your family may have caught it, but you would not know.

    Chronic Q fever can be cured, but it takes a lot of antibiotics.

  15. well it could be vulsikes encephalitis the spelling is not totaly correct its caused by a mlv that eats away at you brain slowly is originates from russia casues all these symptoms and more

  16. Thanks for your comment, Anonymous.

    The virus you are referring to is the Vilyuisk human encephalomyelitis virus (VHEV), which causes an unusual neurodegenerative disease in people living in Vilyuisk, Yakut Republic, in the Russian Federation.

    This neurodegenerative disease is know as: chronic Vilyisk encephalomyelitis. The first symptoms on catching the the Vilyuisk virus are fever and severe headache, like a flu. Then the virus goes dormant, showing no symptoms for many years. After a decade or so with no symptoms, the virus then starts to cause the chronic Vilyisk encephalomyelitis disease.

    The Vilyuisk virus is from the Cardiovirus genus, which (like the Enterovirus genus) comes under the umbrella of the picornavirus family of viruses.

    It is believed that the Vilyuisk virus is only found in the Yakut Republic.

    There is also a relative of this Vilyuisk virus, from the same Cardiovirus genus, called encephalomyocarditis virus (EMCV), which is more widespread. EMCV can infect many animals as well as humans; it causes severe myocarditis, and infects the central nervous system. Sudden death is often the first sign of EMCV infection. However, EMCV is rare in humans, and humans do not usually experience these more severe symptoms.

    Another virus from the Cardiovirus genus that is very common in humans is the New Saffold virus. This virus is found in most people.

  17. Here is an excellent article by Dr. Mercola, M.D., which among other things addresses some of the more prominent symptoms exhibited by many of you, including fatigue and various skin problems. Scroll down to the window/table entitled with the lead in, “Common signs that you have an imbalance in these two fats include:” to find your particular symptoms. After reading the article, click on the Link at the bottom of the page to read the “Comments” for additional information. Dr. Mercola is one of the best physicians in the field of alternative medicine. If you haven’t done so already, consider subscribing to his free online medical newsletter which will also give you access to all of his archived articles.


  18. I have just started taking larix occidenatalis. It is an immune modulating arabinogalactan, a soluable dietary fiber, and prebiotic, with antibacterial properties. I’m reading it will take many weeks to see the benefits.

    REPLY: Good choice. Please let us know how it goes. (By the way, I have got some interesting info about what causes IBS that I will post up soon.)

    – Hip

  19. As far as I’m concern, the probiotic doses should’be comparably small,becase immune system is not quite healthy.

    As far as energy I wouldnt recomend any fruits,sweets,wheat products.They are dirrect food for yeast in your stomach.Yeast is a part of our diagestive systems.They can and probable will overgrow with a weak immune system wich will result in all those symptoms described above.I am not discounting the virus.Its the main cause of a weaker immuity.But a big part of fatigue causes are the toxins(ethanols) that overgrown yeast produce.Its like having a hangover that will not go away.

    Steemed veggies are the best.Dont eat raw veggies,because they are harder to diagest.Garlic should be consumed choped with food,because eating whole thing makes it harder to diagest again.

    There is a website out there created by a lady(Ann Boroch) ,who cured herself of MS,an autoimmune disorder, mostly by dieting.She had a list of “to eat” and “not to eat” foods that she recomends.Works pretty good for me.

    No plastic bottled water.

    There is water called IceBox.It comes from Norway.They “harvest” it from deep underground.Tastes like water from my hometown overseas.I can assure you,nothing like you ever had before.

    Good like with your fight…

  20. Oh…Forgot…Really good vitamin C supplement.Its called

    “ALLERGY-C CAPS” made by “TWINLAB”.Dont take it on empty stomach thou.and do take it with a good amount of water…

  21. Im looking into mitochondrial degeneration. There is something called PQQ that apparently causes mitochondria to regenerate. Interestingly, mitochondia is the only other cell part besides the nucleus that has its own DNA, which means it can replicate within the cell. Here’s some info on it. I am definitely going to be checking it out.


    REPLY: It is interesting. PQQ = pyrroloquinoline quinone (it is considered a possible new vitamin). I thought PQQ was not available yet, but in fact I just saw it now for sale here.

    Whether this will help with mitochondrial conditions like CFS is thought to be remains to be seen.

    – Hip

  22. @ hip

    My friend who was recently diagnosed with parkinson’s is taking pqq. He’s in a trial group to see if it helps his symptoms and I guess there’s some evidence it might.

  23. I am in Ohio. I have been suffering from irrational thoughts, feeling quite enraged. I noticed I am accumilating quite a bit of plaque on my teeth, before that I was having pain & some bllod/infection taste in a tooth in the back. The dentist said it was perfectly health & basicilly acted like I was imaging it, but said come back if it worsens. I am on doxycycline ( i dont take it often) but he said it it a treatment for dental diseases also. I take it for a skin disorder that noone can explain. I have been told its adult acne but also been told it is cellulitis brought on by stress (staff/step) I have been having excess gas & stomach gurgling also. I seem warmer then normal. I do not have a soar throat. I had already decided to do a parasite cleanse & iodine suppliment before finding this article. I definately felt that these were symptoms. My husband has had similiar symptoms to. I have had all the std tests. We did get mono from my daughter last year which sucked. Our life is very high stress right now. The dental plaque & sensitivity & stomach upset & also I keep the house now at about 62degrees, when i normally like 72. I was on accutane years ago & feel it has major effects-maybe simialar to this.idk, interesting. I usually print stuff like this for my NP.

    REPLY: Hi Rachel. Morgellon’s disease is one thing to look at if you have skin changes.

    – Hip

  24. Just a tentative early report on the results of taking Larix, which I have been doing for about a week now (also I am taking 6 pills a day vs the recommended maintainance dosage of 2):

    Since I have had this illness I have gotten every cold and flu that has gone through the office. Right now all around me I have coughing coworkers. Its been that way all week and last. I started to feel a cough and body aches coming on a few days ago, but after just one day I am as far as I can tell completely over it.

    In any other similar scenario of the last three years I would have gotten super sick and it would have lasted twice as long as everyone else’s.

    The only thing I can attribute it to is the Larix. Very interesting. More info to come as I wait for improvement…

  25. @ Hip

    The link you provided to the PQQ is the same company in who’s magazine I first read about PQQ last week. Life Extension.

  26. Hi E

    Great that you are experimenting with supps.

    I used to read all of Life Extension’s stuff (www.lef.org) years ago, before I got this damn CFS; I always was very pro-health before, doing all the right things. So much for that strategy.

    PQQ seems quite similar to Q10. I take Q10 now and then; I find Q10 helps with energy, and mood boosting (at dose of around 200 mg of Q10 or more). So perhaps PQQ will provide similar – and maybe even better – benefits. I will get round to trying PQQ at some point; I am trying so many things all the time.

    By the way, those with irritable bowel syndrome or SIBO: have a look at the possibly this might be caused by an intestinal infection with the protozoan parasite Blastocystis hominis. It can create dire physical and mental symptoms. And Blasto is very common. See here:


    Blastocystis hominis is hard to test for, and hard to eradicate (though not impossible). For those who had IBS/SIBO before catching this virus: it may be due to Blastocystis hominis, and this may be a major contributor to our physical and mental symptoms. Killing off the Blasto at least may take us up to a better level of health.

  27. New antibotic for IBS relief. http://www.webmd.com/ibs/news/20110105/2-weeks-of-antibiotic-therapy-relieves-ibs

    REPLY: Interesting that this antibiotic (rifaximin) provided relief from IBS, up to 10 weeks after stopping this medication, but then IBS resumed.

    This pattern suggests that rifaximin is possibly killing off a parasite such as Blastocystis hominis, but that perhaps rifaximin does not kill the cyst form of Blastocystis hominis, so that after 10 weeks, these parasites just reestablish themselves in the gut. (I checked just now, and rifaximin is also an anti-protozoan, as well as an antibiotic, and it does have some efficacy against Blastocystis hominis; ref: 1).

    Blastocystis hominis can exist in 4 different forms: vacuolar form, granular from, amoeboid from, and cyst form. The cyst form is the toughest to kill. If you don’t kill it, the Blastocystis infection will reestablish itself.

    Jackie of the Badbugs website recommends a 10-day triple anti-protozoal drug cocktail, with these three anti-protozoal drugs killing all the different stages in the life cycle of Blastocystis hominis, which then should eradicate it from your system.

    – Hip

  28. @ Bastante

    Unfortunately that antibiotic is only effective in some cases. I did 4 rounds of rifaximin and neomycin with it having little effect, and my friend’s results were the same. However we were both being treated with it for SIBO, not IBS. It also should be considered that SIBO/IBS is likely compounded by a lack of beneficial bacteria in the gut. Rifaximin will kill all the bad bacteria, but also all of the good bacteria. What eventually did work for my SIBO was a combination of the two antibiotics mentioned above plus a two week special liquid shake diet. Without the starvation diet the antibiotics did nothing for me.

    REPLY: Yes, SIBO (Small Intestine Bacterial Overgrowth) is slightly different to IBS (thought the symptoms of IBS and SIBO are more or less identical). Whereas SIBO is known to be due to bacterial infection, in IBS, there is no pathogen collusively proven to cause it (though the protozoan Blastocystis hominis is currently a strong candidate for a cause of IBS).

    In this respect, IBS is a bit like CFS: a disease in search of its causal pathogen (or more likely, pathogens).

    Note that it is difficult to know whether you have SIBO or IBS, because the symptoms are identical.

    – Hip

  29. See this website for the life cycle of Blasto:


    Note that many strains of Blastocystis hominis cause no problems. This is why people can test positive for Blasto, but be perfectly healthy. I believe the highly pathogenic strain is thought to have come from some Middle Eastern countries.

    Maybe then a pathogenic Blastocystis hominis strain is responsible (in part) for Gulf War Syndrome/Illness. In fact, this website says that it is looking into Blastocystis in Gulf War veterans:


    Remember that GWS often spread to family members, and no doubt later to the wider community.

    Perhaps some nasty local pathogen like Blasto might explain the aggressive rival behavior often found in that region – even before the West arrived.

    (Perhaps Near East conflicts are also caused by some behavoir-altering, stress-inducing pathogens found in that locality too. All these leaders trying for political solutions for peace – that good; but maybe the problem of human warlike aggression is actually routed in the a brain chemical imbalance caused by hidden infections, that create anxiety, fear, paranoia, aggression, irrationality.)

  30. Hey everyone,

    what’s up? I didn’t post anything recently. I cannot feel I am getting worse or better these months. Hope we can make a great progress this year and get better!!

  31. According to my experience,yogurt and bee glue may help us a little.

    REPLY: I found propolis (= bee glue) quite a good anti-inflammatory – Hip

  32. A couple years ago, my last year of college, I started noticing a strange mental shift in my consciousness. The worst part was the severe and debilitating anxiety. It was constant and overwhelming to feel. I knew it wasn’t just plain anxiety because I felt the same alone, at a party, and giving a speech. Usually speeches have given me anxiety… I’m guessing that I was so disconnected with reality that I did not experience any (extra).

    My anxiety has greatly lessened since. It took 2 years of experimentation to get to where I am at. In a way now I have less anxiety than I have ever had in my life, but I think that it is because my brain is so slowed down…

    My mental state was changed forever. I’ve never gained back my previous quickness of thought. I was a confused mess with a terrible memory – mostly bad short and long term. It’s still not back to normal. I might say it’s about the same as before, but without the concurrent anxiety it has been much easier to manage my memory and other symptoms. It’s very sad to lose something that I always held as my greatest strength… Does it come back 100% ever? I really really hope it does. Should I look into anti-inflammatory supps?

    I used to be the person who never forgot a thing. I used to memorize textbooks on my first read through. I used to not have to even read them for school because I could figure answers out using my smarts. Now I look away from the screen and forget what I am writing. I couldn’t tell you without looking what I said earlier in this paragraph as I’m writing this. It feels like my mind is completely blank. My emotions are blunted. I’ve probably become depressed. I sure am as I’m writing all of this down! I’ve lost a lot of friends – used to be ridiculous how often my phone rang people started to call me Hollywood. Now I don’t even carry it with me because I don’t get calls. My girlfriend is still with me (3 years) but things aren’t going great either. And I couldn’t blame her if she wants to leave me!

    I just recently have been getting slight fevers. I used to be FREEZING even in summertime! A month ago I felt a bit flu-ish which went on and off with slight fever and muscle weakness. A couple weeks ago I came down with a chest infection. 101 fever and I felt like poop. I took z pack and now the chest gunk is gone but I still have a slight fever (under 100) constantly and have lost 8 pounds because I have no appetite.

    It seems like I’ve been sick most of the time since this started with colds and gastro problems. Constant colds and long periods of nausea. I don’t even care about that stuff though. I’m just so sad over the loss of my mental abilities… Where is the best place to look for help? I have recently found a great doctor – an internist and professor at one of the best medical schools in the country. I went to him and he said he had no idea what was going on, but likely there was depression and anxiety. Like all of you I know that that is secondary at best. How can I get a great ally like him to work with me? Is there something to say or to bring to him?


    REPLY: Hi Eric

    This is what we all suffer: terrible memory, anxiety problems, loss of emotional strength and normality, and a generally foggy brain. The sad loss of who we once were.

    You did not mention fatigue, so I assume your energy is relatively OK. This perhaps might make you more generalized anxiety disorder GAD (symptoms here) rather than chronic fatigue syndrome CFS (although the two can coexist, and often do).

    But as you appreciate, these labels (diagnoses) do not necessarily pinpoint the cause. There may be other suitable labels (diagnoses) for your condition too. You need to keep pumping Google for answers, as well as your doctor.

    And you should definitely investigate infectious causes for your symptoms, perhaps with a CFS doctor. CFS has been linked with over a dozen different viral and bacterial pathogens that may cause CFS symptoms.

    Sometimes these type of symptoms may actually be caused by bacterial infections that are curable, with antibiotics. You are best advised to become an expert in the mental/neurological symptoms that infectious pathogens can create. During this learning process, you may find your answer.

    It could be that you have the same virus described on this site; but there are many other possibilities. Please keep us all updated on whatever you discover.

    Tip: you will find that the supplement piracetam can be a very useful tool for improving memory.

    – Hip

  33. Thanks for the reply, Hip.

    My energy is on and off day by day. Sometimes it can change in just a couple hours. Usually I do OK with my energy, but I used to sleep 4-5 hours a night for most of my young adult life and do fine though I would have been wise to get more. Since this escalated I need 7-9 and sometimes must have more. When I hit the pillow I am almost always immediately asleep. It’s not so bad compared to the insomnia I used to have, in actuality.

    My body just feels weak. Sometimes (especially if I catch myself falling asleep on the couch in front of the TV) I notice I hardly breathe. During the day I make a point to keep breathing to keep myself oxygenated. When my anxiety was worse, I would notice going for long periods breathing very shallow and slightly, and making sure to get deep breaths, as weird and new age as it sounds, helped. My anxiety would lessen a bit, and more importantly the foggy head feeling would be a bit better.

    I’ll definitely check out piracetam, Hip. Thank you so much for the tip…

    For occasional fatigue, right now I’ve found that small doses of Rhodiola Rosea help better than anything else. My brand is Verde Botanicals. They get good reviews but I don’t know they are any better than anything else. For me, the most effective way to take them is to take a tiny bit of powder out of the pills at a time. One pill may last 5-7 days. Of equal effectiveness for me is their “Energy Reserves” version. I do the same tiny amount for this. It’s nice to have and phase in and out as I need. One pill probably lasts a month but I’ll probably use it all in the same week.

    Also I have a brand of Multivitamins “ADAM” in which I will break a piece off as needed. Once again it will probably end up being 5-7 doses. This, like many other multi vitamins, has some energy boosting herbs (ginseng I’m pretty sure). Anyways I’m sharing this with you and everyone else because it took me a long long time to realize that taking the full dose is much less effective for me than taking a much smaller dose. Many times I felt myself MORE tired after a entire pill. And I’m pretty sure the full dose for both brands is 2 pills a day! I don’t think the brand matters too much but both work well for me.

    Taking everything you’ve replied with earlier into account, I think my best course of action is to make solving this into a “project” rather than a “hobby”. I find myself looking up things as I go about my day that may give me some clues, finding information and forgetting again (lol). I found an online note taking site I’ve been using for memory issues and I’ve started using it for saving what I’ve found about what’s going on in me. I have started using my phone to capture ideas too. The issue with note taking was that I’m embarrassed if someone were to find it. I am getting over it by realizing that there are much worse consequences for not taking this seriously than people reading about what is going on.

    Also, when I visit my doctor I avoid.. the more emotional aspects of this condition. I don’t want to come across as a wimp, so I always leave the office knowing that he doesn’t think this is as big of a deal as it really is. How did you phrase it to your doctor?

    Anyways, I’m ready to get better. Like many of you probably have; I’ve spent a HUGE amount of time thinking and experimenting and ruminating about this condition. I’d like to help other people out as I get better, so I’ll update as everything shapes up.

    Thanks again Hip.


    REPLY: You can talk about depression or anxiety symptoms with your doc, but they will not be able to do much other than provide some meds that may (or may not) be helpful in treating those symptoms. Anything more complicated, like emotional flatness, anhedonia, loss of drive, and your doc will probably recommend a psychiatrist, who again may suggest some meds.

    I would strongly recommend you start hanging around at some CFS online forums. Like the Phoenix Forums.

    – Hip

  34. i think the worst about all this is not even being able to get treatment for the pain which can be very extream for me at times straight to the bones. well went to an hiv speacialist and im quite sure i herd them call the cdc and they told the nurse that it is an new std and there is nothing they can do or i was hearing things im sure i was’nt i swear i heard her say he looks posative but his test is not that would be the the 6th hiv test ive had plus one pcr by rna i have the worst dark circles under my eye i think you could have with new appearing lessions all the time the doctor straight up told me stop wasting your money there not going to do anythibng its been two years with no help or even a cause im starting to think i caught this from the hospital for when i went to get tested there was a two needles layed out and the lady that went befor me looked kinof sick.the shitty thing is theres no way to prove it the girl i caught it from still says shes fine so thats why i say it or shes just a slow progressor or scard shitless of what id do eather way it dont matter im already sick im still convinced the new p group of hiv is what it isdown right convinced my cbc still look great after two years of being sock it that show any immune diffecenctcy im lost with no hope in sight it seems theyre not goiing to help at all even if i was on my death bed its almost like there treating me like i have something worse that hiv i dont no

    hows everyone doing and looking its been a while for all of us on here also if i wanted to be checked for the new p strain does anyone no how i would go by in doing that?

    REPLY: Why don’t you try going slowly through This List Of Human Infectious Diseases, and see if you can find a bug that matches your symptoms.

    – Hip

  35. Hi Hip and everyone else…

    I have been offline for over 12months and trying to get on with life. Regardless of all the ongoing symptoms that I think connected to the Virus I think I have on this well informed/helpful blog.

    To date I still have the following:

    – Skin crawling still mainly in legs, head, face and hands. Sometimes it feels as though the PN has gone and then comes bk to haunt me with a vengeance. I try and not get my hopes up.

    – Bloodshot eye – only ever on one side and never both at the same time.

    – Muscle twitching – mainly upper legs, thigh and upper chest and arms.

    – Receding gums

    – Itchy left hand palm with the right hand palm being ok and not itchy. Or I don’t notice it.

    – Anxiety has really worsened over last 6-12 mths. I sometimes think people are watching me. Or whether I might have offended someone.

    – Reoccurring ache on right hand side of chest/stomach just below rib cage. No bruising or visible swelling, but a definite dull ache.

    – Periodic Chest pain just like indigestion but more uncomfortable than this. Diet is good btw.

    – Loose knee ligaments. Legs sometimes give out, but moreso left knee.

    – Sudden shooting pains that can be anywhere.

    – Really short of breath when bending over to pick something up, even for the slightest period and then feel very dizzy and like I am short of breath almost immediately. Again fitness good.. I am not overweight/obese.

    So YES everything is pretty much like it was 12-18mths ago, no lapse just all of the above is ongoing. And that link to the Enterovirus Foundation website whee it lists all the symptoms kind of confirms to me.. We see things in us, that others don’t..

    As usual, thanks for this blog.. it helps me deal with it all when I need it.


    REPLY: Hi NeilW. Good to see you are back.

    I recognize the symptoms you have listed; especially this extra sensitivity and concern as to whether one might have offended someone else – bizarrely, this is quite a common symptom of this virus.

    The good news is that since you were here last, some useful supplements have been found that reduce the mental and physical symptoms quite considerably in many people. These recommended supplements include anti-inflammatories like curcumin, as well as prebiotics, probiotics, Saccharomyces boulardii, and colostrum. Full details on the Treatments Page.

    Let us know if these help you too – feedback is always nice. The plan is to keep trying things, until we find a solution that gets us back to full health, or close to it.

    – Hip

  36. I really love this site TY, makes me feel better just knowing I’m not alone…. I’ve been in pain going on 6 years now, I have the wrinkling of the skin and the dark spots on the legs that don’t want to go away, kind of fungal looking like you said (mainly where I had mosquito bites and poison ivy lesions and mainly on my right leg and tiredness too, three months ago I started a new diet where you mainly eat meat and salad, and it’s made my pain in my chest a ton better and I can sleep too but I now have had a sore throat for 3 months. I had swollen lymph nodes in the groin for several months last year but this is better and my neck was swollen when my throat started hurting 3 months ago, swelling is better but throat still hurts. But it defiantly makes sense, I fell like I’ve been cycling an infection that just wont go away but won’t show up on any test either!!! I’m not big on taking a laundry list of pills, other than diet what would you suggest in order of importance to try so I can do a little at a time so I can make as few changes as possible… TY so much for this site!!!

  37. @ unk

    You really think you have hiv-p? The description of it sounds like it would be pretty easy to tell if you had it and I think you’d be pretty miserable! You mentioned pain but unless its in your jaw and mouth area I think hiv-p would be unlikely. Just my two cents though. Sorry to hear you’re feeling bad.

    HIV periodontitis (HIV-P),

    n an aggressive form of periodontal disease with all the characteristics of HIV-G combined with those of periodontitis: soft tissue ulceration and necrosis and rapid destruction of the periodontium and bone. The condition is very painful. HIV-P may resemble acute necrotizing ulcerative gingivitis (ANUG). However, ANUG is limited to the soft tissue, whereas HIV-P disease extends into the crestal bone.#

    More clarification: http://www.aegis.com/pubs/bala/1992/BA920411.html

    REPLY: No, you are mixing different things up here, E. “HIV-P” and “HIV-G” in the above link you provided just mean periodontitis and gingivitis in people with HIV.

    What Unk believes is that he may have caught the virus HIV-1 group P. This is a new group within the HIV 1 type, discovered in 2009.

    Some interesting facts about HIV:

    HIV can be divided into two major types, HIV type 1 (HIV-1) and HIV type 2 (HIV-2).

    HIV-1 is split into four groups: group M, group N, group O, and group P.

    HIV-1 group M is by far the most common type of HIV, with more than 90% of HIV/AIDS cases deriving from infection with HIV-1 group M.

    HIV-1 group M is further subdivided into eleven subtypes: A, B, C, to K. These subtypes are also referred to as clades. There are also further subtypes called CRFs, which are a new recombinations of these eleven subtypes. For example, CRF A/E is a recombination of both A and E subtypes into a single new HIV-1 group M virus.

    • Although most current HIV-1 antiretroviral drugs were designed for use against HIV-1 group M subtype B, there is no compelling evidence that they are any less effective against other subtypes.

    HIV-1 group N has only been seen in Cameroon (in only 10 people).

    HIV-1 group O is not usually seen outside of West-central Africa. This group caused some concern because it could not be detected by early versions of the HIV-1 test kits. More advanced HIV tests have now been developed to detect both group O and group N.

    HIV-1 group P was isolated from a Cameroonian woman residing in France who was diagnosed with HIV-1 infection in 2004. French scientists discovered this new HIV virus as part of a routine survey of genetic variability among HIV strains. This woman’s CD4 count has remained around 300 since her diagnosis. She has never been on HIV treatment. She has never shown a symptom of advanced HIV/AIDS. This HIV-1 group P virus is also called the “RBF168″ strain. Standard HIV tests were able to spot HIV-1 group P. Ref: here.

    HIV-2 has not been widely seen outside of Africa. The first case in the United States was in 1987. Many test kits for HIV-1 will also detect HIV-2.

    HIV-2 is split into eight groups groups: group A, group B, to group H. Only groups A and B are epidemic. Group A spread mainly in West Africa, but also to Angola, Mozambique, Brazil, India, and very limitedly to Europe or the US. Group B is mainly confined to West Africa.

    This info was extracted from these links:

    Subtypes of HIV, HIV (Apparently) Comes From Gorillas, New HIV-1 from gorillas, Subtypes of HIV, HIV types, groups and subtypes

    So it would appear that the bottom line on all this, in terms of HIV testing, if you want to be totally thorough, is to ensure that you take an HIV test that is able to detect HIV-2 as well as HIV-1; and that the test can also detect the very rare HIV-1 groups O and N.

    – Hip

  38. Olive Leaf Extract is very effective against viruses as well as Elderberry. Also drinking grapfruit juice is good too.

    God bless you!

  39. Hey everybody.

    Lately, I’ve been speculating on the similarity between our symptoms and general HIV and I thought that, since you have been on the topic, I would put my my two cents in.

    I have not done any research on the different types of HIV, but I wonder if any of them are transmitted through saliva like our virus is? If not, then my guess is that our virus is in fact a new strain of HIV that has evolved to be able to live in our saliva. I also guess that, in order to live in our saliva, the virus has lost a great deal of it’s strength.

    What do you think, Hip; are there any know strains of HIV that can be transmitted via human saliva?

    REPLY: None at all.

    But a very common psychological symptom of, for example, the “Fear of AIDS” virus in China a total “one track mind” focus on it being some sort of new HIV virus. Many people there will take 5 or 10 HIV tests, and even though all the tests all come back negative, they keep taking more tests. That is how the “Fear of AIDS” virus there got its name. This behavior is related to the overdrive of anxiety in the brain the Chinese virus produces.

    Truth is, there is nothing that particularly unusual about the symptoms caused by the virus described on this website; these sort of symptoms are very common in CFS, and CFS is linked to a number of respiratory viruses, from HHV-6 to enterovirus. CFS is a horrible disease, sadly neglected by the medical community.

    – Hip

  40. The best way to describe the FOA China disease is like constantly having an allergic reaction where your face gets red and your body is having an extreme inflmmation response to the virus. I have found skullcap (natures xanax) and taking ProBoost has really helped against the symptoms. ProBoost induces cell death and is a great antiviral. After a week of ProBoost I have felt almost normal again. Im not sure if I will need to take it forever but its working for now.

  41. Hi again,

    After a year, I have found an effective cure for myself (after trying lots of cures). It’s ‘distilled thyme water‘…

    I drink it (and gargle with it) regularly (started to use it few months ago).

    Significant changes: My tonsils’ color is turning back to normal (I realized that distilled thyme water is a strong thinner). I feel really relaxed mentally and physically. My back pain is getting better. There’s no inflammation around my tonsils! My instestines work a lot better. My metabolism and immune system is running way better than ever (I think it catalyses the metabolism).

    No changes: other problems not solved yet :) .

    Use it at your own risk and please research about its side effects before using it. (As far as I know, if you have been diagnosed with goiter, you shouldn’t use it.)

    My first post @ Jan 2010:

    I have almost same symptoms for ~three years. Primary symptoms (or physical symptoms) occured in June 2007 when I was serving in the army ( I live in Third World ). After a heavy flu period, my tonsils turned into dark red, and they never healed again ( they’re still dark red). Doctor said: “it’s a viral infection, so antibiotics wouldn’t help.”

    There’s still permanent inflammation (low level) on my tonsils , but I’m used to it. After the flu period, intense lower back pain/lumbago occured (in June 2007) and never healed…

    In the few months, psychological issues occured (just like in this article); I simply turned into a pessimistic and fragile person in this period (I was not an optimistic person before it, but I was not pessimistic too). I have totally isolated myself from the community. I’m conscious, but there’s some kind of impulse that forces me to isolate myself. However, I want to start a new life in another place. I mean, I don’t want to see my old friends anymore…

    I also get demoralized easily (I was not that fragile before it) and whenever I try to motivate myself ( self motivation ) I fail (I never use anti-deppressants). I’m simply unhappy all the time.

    I have tried various multivitamin mineral supplements, and herbal cures but they didn’t help.

    Actually, there’s a lot of detail but my English is not enough for a detailed story than this.

    Thanks Hip for this website. There’s great/unique information in here…

    REPLY: Thanks for writing. Some herbs can help a little bit, but it takes a while to find the right herbs for you. You might try taking the supplement carnitine 1000 mg daily; this can boost energy levels and mental concentration. – Hip

  42. Many thanks for this info, Atn. It is always appreciated when someone tries lots of remedies, and then on finding a remedy that works for them, posts the details here.

    I am guessing that the “thyme water” you are using is what is scientifically called the “aqueous extract of thyme” – or more simply – a tea made from passing hot water through thyme leaves.

    Is this correct?

    Or maybe you mean “steam distillation”, in which case, this process produces an essential oil product of thyme. Essential oils are usually sold in small bottles of around 10 ml, and the dose when taking essential oils is usually not more than a fews drops.

    I read that the aqueous extract of thyme is quite a powerful antibiotic, especially against helicobacter pylori – the bacterium that causes stomach ulcers. And also that the aqueous extract of thyme is good at healing bacterial throat infections, and throat inflammation, when gargled three times a day.

    The aqueous extract of thyme also seems to have effect against herpes simplex 1 and 2.

    Thyme seems to be a good anti-inflammatory: the thymol component in thyme inhibits elastase (the enzyme that breaks down elastin – and which I think may be responsible for our skin symptoms). High elastase is connected to inflammation. However, thymol is not very soluble water, so not much will be found in the aqueous extract of thyme; thymol will only be found in large quantities in the essential oil of thyme.

    Carvacrol is another component of thyme essential oil, and carvacrol is a powerful anti-inflammatory, in reducing COX-2 inflammation.

    – Hip

  43. Hi Hip,

    Your guess is correct; it’s aqueous extract of thyme in a big bottle (not tea or oil).

    It can’t be used directly (it really burns, it’s just like acid), I mix it with water (for a standard drinking water glass, adding 1+1/2 dessert spoon tyhme water to flat water).

    As you mentioned, it also calms down the stomach (I have helicobacter pylori).

    Thanks a lot Hip, for great/detailed information.

    REPLY: OK, if you have helicobacter pylori, this may explain why thyme has been particularly effective for you. Have you tried to eradicate your helicobacter pylori completely?. This study says there is a 90% success rate in eradication, using three antibiotics, together with allicin (from garlic) at the same time.

    – Hip

  44. Hi:

    I am having most of the symptoms described by you.

    1. From my teenage, i have had frequent throat infections and had been suggested tonsillectomy by some doctors and some doctors did not agree with tonsillectomy.

    2. At age 29, i had chronic diarrhea and after undergoing EGD and colonoscopy, they could find nothing and told that it is due to stress. (note: They checked stool only for ova and parasites and it was negative. No other stool test/culture was done).

    3. At age 31 I had lymph node enlargement and found that i had Tuberculosis. I got treated for that and stopped the medication since my eyes got reddish.

    4. Now, at age 32, I am having the following problems:

    a. Recurrent throat infections.

    b. Bloating and intermittent diarrhea.

    c. Again eye redness that resolved with ofloxacin.

    d. Left knee pain.

    e. Left great toe numbness at the tip.

    f. Some red colored skin changes.

    g. Feeling heavy in the head.

    h. Some decreased mental functioning.

    I have done a HIV test and it came negative.

    I am totally confused and not able to concentrate on my work due to the fear of death without any confirmed diagnosis or treatment.

    Kindly help me please in diagnosing my disease. It is creating lot of problems in my life.

    REPLY: Hi Muthu

    Maybe your symptoms are a result of more than one condition. You might want to look into the possibility that your chronic diarrhea is irritable bowel syndrome, a condition has been recently linked to infection with pathogenic strains of the protozoan parasite Blastocystis hominis. Blastocystis hominis is very hard to detect: stool tests for Blastocystis hominis often result in false negatives, because this parasite is not always shed in the stool every day.

    – Hip

  45. hello, I just read your text concerning *chronic sore throat desease* and *cfs*. I am suffering of the same desease since more than 20 years. I am a family doctor. Who are you exactly? Are you a MD or someone with a scientific background? thanks

  46. Hi John

    I have scientific background (postgraduate), but my medical and biochemical knowledge is extremely limited. I am learning this little by little, because this helps me understand more about chronic fatigue syndrome.

    Most of the information on this website is standard knowledge/research on chronic fatigue syndrome. In particular, this website provides details on all the viruses, bacteria, and protozoa that have been associated with chronic fatigue syndrome.

    This website also covers the specific symptoms produced by virus that I caught (which I have been told, by an infectious disease expert, is probably an enterovirus). This virus I caught has spread to most of my friends and family; most of these people with this virus have a become a little more fatigued, stressed, depressed, etc; but in my case, I was affected more severely: I developed chronic fatigue syndrome and high anxiety symptoms.

    For further information on chronic fatigue syndrome: a very good website that provides a nice research overview, and all the latest news on chronic fatigue syndrome is the PHOENIX RISING forum:





    I hope this of interest.

    – Hip

  47. Good news, I think I found something that works. I have had a sore throat on the right side as well as fullness in the right ear for over a year. I had given up on feeling better. I was convinced I had this virus (if it exists) as I had most of the other symptoms as well. My throat specialist told me that he thinks I injured my throat and it is not healing because I constantly clear my throat.

    I tried a few things listed below and after 2 months (it takes a while) it really made a big difference

    1) Stopped clearing my throat, I would drink hot water when I felt the need

    2) before going to bed I would drink hot water with cayenne pepper

    3) Started using deodorant with no chemicals (from Whole foods)

    4) Took ibuprofen every night

    5) no coffee, switched to green tea

    I hope this helps a few of us out there

    REPLY: Thanks for your posting, AAK.

    Cayenne is an interesting supplement: it boosts the secretion of IgA antibodies in the mucous membranes (as does colostrum and the yeast probiotic Saccharomyces boulardii).

    This may be why cayenne has helped clear up your throat.

    – Hip

  48. First I must say that this is very helpful webpage. I got something that match most of what is described on this page. I would like to add some of my experiences with this nasty thing:

    1. The cause is most probably the bacteria (not virus or fungi)

    2. The bacteria can be treated with antibiotics, but only temporarily (it reappears shortly after completion of ATB cure and ATB will become ineffective against the infection after some time)

    3. The disease is curable (i got it and have cured, but after some time i got it once more

    4. The bacteria is most probably Staphylococcus, or Chlamydia pneumoniae

    REPLY: Thanks for your comment.

    It is true that the general type of symptoms described on this website can be caused by bacteria, especially Chlamydia pneumoniae and Coxiella burnetii, but in my case, I know the incubation period of my pathogen is approximately 8 to 24 hours. The incubation period of Chlamydia pneumoniae and Coxiella burnetii is around 2 to 3 weeks, so in my case, it cannot be either of these bacteria.

    Brucella is another species of bacterium that can cause chronic fatigue syndrome symptoms, but again, Brucella’s incubation period is 1 to 3 weeks – much slower than that of the pathogen I have.

    Staphylococcus aureus, in food poisoning, has an incubation period as fast as 4 to 6 hours, but normally its incubation period is 4 to 10 days.

    – Hip

  49. Honestly this has to be the most sick I have ever been I cant even hardly stand up and when I blow my nose I get so dizzy the room starts spinning

    REPLY: Sorry to hear that Mike. What are your other symptoms?

    – Hip

  50. I have the majority of the symptoms spoken of on this page.

    Sore throat that seems to come and go especially when I don’t get enough sleep. I had a heart attack about three years ago at the age of 21 they said if was an infection of the sack around the heart I recovered with no antibiotics but they never found out what caused the infection. I have horrible stomach problems and get random headaches and throw up randomly. in the last six months I have gotten a prickly itchy feeling all over my body that seems to be the worst when I sit down or lay down. Horrible anxiety at random and memory issue. Also blurry vision but I’ve been told my eyes are fine. I get very tired at random and I also think after I eat. loss of balance at times like my feet our not stable or something. I got pink eye randomly and in the last month and the doctor told me it looked virus.

    In recent months I’ve been getting like rashes or like skin infections on my groin that come and go at what seems to be a really quick pace. I think some of the symptoms started when I was 16 and I am now 24. I’ve been going to the doctor and have seen my primary who has ran blood work for Hiv diabetes organ function and they all came back negative and good organ function. I’ve seen a dermatologist who did not seem to think I had a skin infection but seen it at an almost healed time after returning multiple times he saw small red pimple like bums that he cut and tested a light something cocus came up and he finally gave me antibiotics they seem to help. Also I was sent to a neurologist and he said I might have restless leg syndrome and gave me gabatin which seems to make the prickly feeling not as bad and capable of standing.

    But it’s hard and very depressing because I keep suggesting that there might be something else cancer or something I mean I feel that they should be telling me what to get tested for not he other way around. But they think I’m crazy and have suggested a phycologist before even trying anything else the neurologist seem to be the only one with a open mind that wants to try and help me before telling me that i’m crazy. Well on a better note coming across this sight has made me feel better and given me some hope I don’t know if this unknown virus is what I have but I would like to try some of the treatments you suggest. I’m not scared of dying but if I am I would feel stupid if I had a chance to save myself and did nothing. It would be much appreciated to get your opinions and suggestions for me thanks.

    REPLY: HI Fernando

    Pleased you found this website.

    Your case looks very much like this virus. You say you have all the typical symptoms, plus heart attack and pericarditis – well heart attack with pericarditis (and myocarditis) happened to one person I know that caught this virus.

    Viral pericarditis is most commonly caused by echovirus or coxsackievirus (these two viruses are both in the enterovirus genus). And most of the other symptoms are also very typical of enteroviruses. The only problem is that it is very difficult to test for chronic enterovirus (see here for an explanation).

    My guess is that this virus is a nasty enterovirus.

    The loss of balance / dizziness comes from the virus (or the inflammation) effecting the balance organs in the ears (Ménière’s syndrome). Again, Ménière’s is often caused by enteroviruses.

    One person with this virus developed mild restless leg syndrome.

    Infections on the skin around the groin are common (they probably arise due to the fact that this virus suppresses the immune system). After severals years, the immune suppression does slowly disappear, and your immune system improves little. Fungal groin infections can be treated very effectively with small amounts of topical bicarbonate of soda powder.

    The best approach I have found for fixing the mental symptoms (such as anxiety) is taking specific anti-inflammatories, particularly high-dose probiotics, as described on the Treatments Page. All the stuff on the Treatments Page is mainly designed to help fix the mental symptoms.

    Surprisingly, inflammation in the intestines can directly cause inflammation in the brain. And it is the brain inflammation that can give rise to the symptoms of anxiety, depression, memory problems, etc.

    The latest research is showing that brain inflammation is linked to a number of mental conditions:

    Google Search: brain inflammation depression anxiety

    See also: Dr Gina Nick: Sickness Syndrome

    – Hip

  51. Ok, there is many Staph. species, and there are some points that makes me think that this is the “bug” :

    1.It posseses strong enzym that dissolves connective tissue (colagen si the glue of spinal cord and all of joints

    2.The chemical -SAG it makes is able to create immunomass (like allergies to milk protein, etc…)

    3.resistance to ATB

    REPLY: Staphylococcus is definitely a very potent and interesting bacterium.

    Many people with chronic fatigue syndrome experience significant improvement in their symptoms when given Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine (a vaccine that increases the immune response against Staphylococcus, and so helps to control Staphylococcus infection). Unfortunately, Staphylococcus vaccine is difficult to find – but it is very helpful for CFS.

    When I had a intestinal stool sample analysis, Staphylococcus was found in my gut. But for my sore throat (my first symptom), several bacterial swabs and cultures performed by several doctors, but no bacteria were found in my throat. I think in my case the infection is viral.

    However, it could be that Staphylococcus is a co-infection that adds to my symptoms. For example, you may have Staphylococcus already in your body, and then if you catch an immunosuppressive virus (like enterovirus or HHV-6A), this virus may allow Staphylococcus populations to increase in the body. Then with increased number of Staphylococcus, your body is filed with more Staphylococcus toxins, like SAG (Staphylococcal superantigens), and Staphylococcal elastase. This is what is probably happening in many CFS patients.

    Elastase (which destroys skin elastin) is usually high in the blood of CFS patients (though much of this elastase probably comes from neutrophils).

    By the way, Anonymous, do you have some idea of what the incubation period for the infection you caught is? For example, if you know who you caught it from (and the time you were with that person), and you also know the time your first symptoms appeared (the first symptoms of this virus are typically a sore throat, or gastrointestinal upset), then this is the incubation period.

    – Hip

  52. There may be possibly many “triggers” for Staph. to become awaken once it gets into the body. Basicaly anything that you have already mentioned that lowers the imunity. No medical test gives 100% sure results (morover this bug can “seat” anywhere in the body to create havoc on opposite side of the body). .As tissue is getting weaker it opens the door for more toxins and other bugs to do bad job.

  53. A little bit more:

    Staphylococcus lowers the immunity in many ways:

    1. It is haemolytic which means that it steals iron from the blood and causes its deficiency

    2. By making the lung tissue thinner it starts repeating infections and some kind of permanent pneumonia, caused by bacteria, fungi, and any viruses passing over, This together with anemia worsens the oxygen supply to the body

    3.By dissolving the gut tissue it releases food toxins to enter the blood freely

    The response of the body to this is to send body “warriors” to get rid of all infections. Usual way to do that is that white blood cells “shoot” toxins (elastase is their tool to be faster) on anything that moves. It doesn’t solve the primary reason (probably Staphylococcus), but they focus on the secondary. And this is a kind of loop.

    REPLY: Since Staphylococcus aureus has a strong link to CFS, and since the stool analysis I had done showed that I had Staphylococcus aureus in my gut, I decided at one stage to experiment with antibacterial supplements that specifically target Staphylococcus.

    I did feel better while I was taking these antibacterial supplements. However, since supplements generally have multiple modes of action in the body, the fact that these anti-Staphylococcus supplements helped me does not necessarily prove that my symptoms (partly) come from Staphylococcus.

    In case you want to try these anti-Staphylococcus supplements, they include: propolis, allicin, bael fruit powder, ginger, monolaurin (or coconut oil), black seed oil (Nigella sativa), sage oil, berberine. Probiotics will help a lot to fight Staphylococcus in the gut.

    Ideally I would like to find someone who can provide Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine injections.

    – Hip

  54. Hi

    I am a physicist researching healing based upon v. advanced physics for 25 years. I have specialized in immune system problems and infections diseases for the last 10 years. I caught the “mood virus” last autumn (although its symptoms were a bit different from those above), thought I had got rid of it and it turned into what appeared to be Lyme disease. I then developed a treatment for Lyme and as the Lyme left, the Lyme/mood virus came back. One interpretion is that the “mood virus” is actually a drug resistant viral form of Lyme disease. I cannot prove this, but it is possible that antibiotics have forced Lyme to become a contagious virus which carries the Lyme DNA into the body so that it then reverts to Lyme plus the virus. Richard

    REPLY: Hi Richard. I cannot access you site for some reason at the moment, but will try again later.

    As far as I understand it, the delivery of new genes to bacteria via a bacteriophage (a special virus that infects only bacteria) happens a lot, and is one reason why bacteria can develop antibiotic resistant so fast: because they can acquire new capabilities and resistance from these virally-injected genes. In fact, the increased virulence of MRSA (methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus) bacteria actually comes from an injection of genetic material via a bacteriophage, that then allows regular Staphylococcus bacteria to possess a toxin called Panton-Valentine leukocidin, which then turns Staphylococcus into a super-bacterium.

    Just did a quick Google search, and there does seem to be a new bacteriophage of Borrelia burgdorferi going around.

    In any case, no matter what type of infection someone has picked up, it appears that one route to anxiety, depression, etc symptoms common to many infections is the brain inflammation route. Brain inflammation appears to precipitate such mental symptoms.

    So a good treatment for these anxiety and depression symptoms is reducing brain inflammation. There are papers (like this one) that indicate that gut inflammation can directly create brain inflammation, via cytokine and other pathways. This is why prebiotics, probiotics, and herbs that have an anti-inflammatory effect in the gut can have a powerful effect in lowering mental symptoms.

    Ultimately one would like to eliminate the pathogen that was causing the infection and inflammation; but in the mean time, the anti-inflammatory approach can make life a little more bearable.

    – Hip

  55. Really interesting conversation going on. So what I’m seeing is that this could actually be a lot of different things. I’ve heard about this cold virus that is found much more often in overweight people. The idea is that the virus changes the physiology of the person. Do you think that it’s possible that we are all under the influence of something like this?

    Also… I’ve had fluid in my ears for a few months now and Dr. has looked in there. Have an appointment in a week or so. Z-pak didn’t help. You guys deal with this, any ideas?

    REPLY: Fluid build up in the ears appears to be the cause of the symptoms of Ménière’s, and Ménière’s is linked to viral infection. Again an anti-inflammatory approach may help.

    – Hip

  56. There is some possible explanation to change of mood with the “virus”.

    All of the viruses trigger interferon response and as well some bacteria.

    What interferon does is degradation of tryptophan-“good” mood amino acid.

    Some bacteria (Staph., Streptococcus) degrades tryptophan directly, besides triggering interferon response.

    What worked best with me is taking allicin supplement with a diet which does not contain any milk and very little sugars and mould.

    REPLY: You have definitely been reading lots about pathogens and the immune system!

    Yes, that interferon-serotonin interaction is definitely something that may be happening too. And I have noticed that when I take the interferon-alpha boosting herb astragalus, though some of my symptoms improve, I do feel more depressed, and I suspect this depression is due to precisely this tryptophan/serotonin lowering effect of interferon.

    When Dr John Chia used intravenous interferon therapy on his CFS patients (for typically a month, I believe), though this put many people into remission from their enterovirus CFS, some patients often went through severe depression and misery for the whole month, due to to the interferon-serotonin interaction.

    I suspect that many of the other symptoms of this virus come from damage or dysfunction in the hypothalamus, brain stem, and basal ganglia (these are areas that enteroviruses often attack).

    The basal ganglia is responsible for motivation and procedural learning, and there are often problems in the basal ganglia in CFS.

    The brain stem helps filter relevant from non-relevant stimuli, and brain stem dysfunction probably explains why people with CFS feel overloaded with environmental stimuli, because the filter is broken. I find that even just noises in the street can drive me mad on some days!

    I tried allicin myself, and found it was quite helpful (though allicin is an unusually potent antibacterial, and there is a danger of gut dysbiosis if you take it long-term, unless you counteract with probiotics).

    – Hip

  57. I know tryptophan is a building block for Serotonin. I just learned that 80% of Serotonin is in the digestive tract, regulating how fast food moves through.

    Can serotonin travel between the two places?

    Maybe another way to combat this loss of tryptophan is through probiotics.

    REPLY: Interesting question. I looked it up, and apparently blood platelets absorb serotonin quite quickly, and also very little serotonin gets through the blood-brain barrier; nevertheless, some small quantities of serotonin from the gut’s nervous system might reach the brain.

    – Hip

  58. Hmmm,…. not sure about this. Degradation of tryptophan is a kind of defense. The bugs needs it and human body needs it as well. But there is assumption that humans needs less tryptophan than bugs. In a short term this works and most viruses are not able to cope with tryptophan shortage. But if there is some bug that is able to survive it in a longer term , then the interferon strategy is not so effective, since the amino acid is necessary for good functioning of human (good sleep, imunity,…).

  59. I did not know that. Is this degradation of tryptophan a defense just against bacteria, or does it also work for some viruses too?

  60. hip I’m confused about one thing. in Dr Gina Nick: Sickness Syndrome it said to stay away from grapeseed oil cuz is causes inflammation but in your treatment page it said to try grape seed extract. Is there a difference? Also if I try these methods and try to get my stomach tested could they make it harder for the doctors to find evidence of the enterovirus if it’s there?

  61. Yes, grape seed extract is not the same as grape seed oil.

    Grape seed extract is anti-inflammatory.

    Grape seed oil has a more complex status regarding pro- or anti-inflammation.

    Gina Nick is saying that grape seed oil is pro-inflammatory because it is high in omega 6 essential fatty acids (EFAs), and omega 6 has pro-inflammatory properties. But in fact, it is a little more complicated than that, because omega 6 also has some anti-inflammatory properties too! I found that that taking very high doses of omega 6 was strongly anti-inflammatory for me. I was taking around 10 ml of evening primrose oil a day, which is loaded with omega 6.

    I am not entirely sure why evening primrose oil worked well for my brain inflammation, but just by experimenting with it, I know it does work.

    Actually, I forget to put high dose of omega 6 / evening primrose oil on the treatments page. I found evening primrose oil was a reasonably good way to treat brain inflammation.

    Omega 6 EFAs are used quite a lot in CFS, and generally give benefit.

    Note that all the stuff on the Treatments Page definitely works, as I have only put things there that I have tried and tested.

    I have tried out literally hundreds and hundred of supplements: herbs, vitamins, flavonoids, enzymes, amino acids, hormones, essential oils, nootropics, and various pharmaceutical drugs, and out of all these, I only list the supplements that work, in the hope that this information will be beneficial for other people with this horrible virus.

    Of course, there is no guarantee that these remedies will work equally well for you, as you might have a different virus, and you probably will have a different set of co-infections in your body.

    So please use the info in the treatments page as a starting point, but you also need to follow your own a trial and error approach: try these things out, but if they don’t work, try something else.

    This treatments page is an ongoing project: I’m constantly testing new approaches, and as soon as I find anything that provides significant benefits, I usually put it on the treatments page (and I generally email out this info to those that have supplied an email address).

    And if you happen to find some supplement that you notice works pretty well, please post the information, to let everyone here know.

    To answer your other question: I am not sure if anti-inflammatories might make it harder to detect enterovirus; it is conceivable, so if you were going to do any tests, you might want to stop taking supplement say 2 week before hand.

  62. Interferon works mostly against viruses and small number of bacteria. The reason is that viruses can live only inside the cells so depleting tryptophan inside the cell is effective in order to stop their replication. The same works for bacteria that live inside cells. For some reason interferon is used as well for one or two kinds of extracelular bacteria (i.e. stphylococcus and streptococcus…). Some viruses avoid this mechanism of inf action by infecting some immunity cells (it is not possible to completly deplet tryptophan inside these cells). But these are only a few (like HIV, EBV,…).

  63. All of the treatments that have helped me with this strange disease have come from alternative medicine. I just ran across this website while looking for information on humic and fulvic acids which are said to be effective agains a host of microbes. They also have a form of colloidal silver which they say is more effective than other varieties. I make my own CS and it has been good for knocking out colds and treating gingivitis and cuts and things but this is probably too high tech to make at home.


  64. Hip,

    there is a lot of discussion about CFS and many suspect and try to find some new virus which would give an explanation to various symptoms that occur with the disease. But symptoms like hypoxia, hypoglycemia, fatigue, heart palpitations are as well typical manifestation of bacterial sepsis. I think there is no virus that may have incubation period of 2 hours. The virus that replicates so quickly would kill a man in 3 hours or so. ANd that is not the aim of any virus. It just wants to steal “food” as long as it is possible.

  65. The incubation period of this pathogen is roughly in the 12 to 24 hours range (which I have observed several times, as this pathogen spread through my social group, and infected various people), but on one occasion it was definitely within 8 hours (and perhaps slightly less, like 7 hours).

    When my throat was very sore with the infection, three separate bacterial swabs and cultures came back negative. So this tends to indicate it is not bacterium.

    But CFS can be caused by both viruses and bacteria (and protozoa too). On this page, I have listed all the different viruses, bacteria, and protozoa that can cause CFS. If you know of any others that I have not included, please post the info.

  66. Alright so I got the hole nine whole food had just about everything. It cost about 410 $ for everything. They only had one prebiotic psyllium husk.

    Grape seed extract


    Rhodiola rosea

    co q 10



    Spanish Saffron :( I wanted persian

    L- theanine


    saccharomyces-Boulardii + MOS

    Holy basil




    Cats Claw


    hemp seed oil

    sesame Oil

    enteric coated 5 billion organisms probiotic capsules

    Also Niacin was wondering if that was the same as Niacinamide?

    So I’ma Follow hips instructions And see what happens And let u know what works and what does not. Omega 3 6 and 9 seem to help already with head spaciness and head aces.

    Also Vision optimizer which contain a # of the things listed above and more for example ginkgo, Lutein, zeaxanthin, bilberry alpha lipoid acid, taurine, selenium and eye bright(euphrasia officiinalis) and others. But at three a day my vision is much clearer.

    Hip I would love to hear any extra suggestions on how best to take these medication. For example you said in the treatment page to start off with grape seed extract. I guess my concern is if I take to much of things that are new to my body I could get sicker. have you had bad experiences when starting any of these medications/herbs to quick?

    REPLY: That was quite a shopping expedition, Fernando!

    I don’t think any of these supplements will cause an significant side effects.

    But I would start with the anti-inflammatory supplements first. I have put the anti-inflammatory supplements in bold text in your above list. These will likely reduce your anxiety symptoms within half a day or less. They will also reduce any unpleasant mild psychosis-type symptoms you may be experiencing. These anti-inflammatory supplements will make you feel relatively sane once again.

    General Notes:

    Q10, saffron, NAHD, and Rhodiola rosea all have mood boosting, anti-depressant properties, and these you can take any time, but are especially good to take on days when you feel more depressed than usual.

    Niacinamide and niacin are both forms of vitamin B3, but niacin at say 50 mg or higher will cause a very strong flush of blood to the peripheries (Google niacin flush). Niacinamide does not do this, and so it is best to take niacinamide if you are going to take high daily doses of say 2000 to 3000 mg. High doses niacinamide will help to reduce any psychosis-type symptoms (but the anti-inflammatories are much more powerful at reducing any anxiety and psychosis-type symptoms)

    Propolis, quercetin, NADH, Rhodiola rosea and Q10 are best not taken near bedtime, as they are slightly stimulatory, can keep you awake.

    Curcumin in higher doses (say more than 2000 mg per day) occasionally produces temporary irritation or aggression feelings.

    I see that you bought some L-carnosine. In fact, the treatments page recommended L-carnitine, which is different. However, sometimes an accident like this can be fortuitous: perhaps L-carnosine may have a useful effect. Let us know if it does.

    – Hip

  67. 2 Anonymous,

    Respect, your brain still works well ).

    REPLY: Kozak, I realize that your constantly angry, ranting disposition is probably a symptom of the infection that you have, rather than your normal self. (This anger may be due to infection / inflammation in the brain stem, which can result in uncontrollable anger symptoms.)

    Nevertheless, it is not good form to attack people who are weak and ill, which includes most people here; so comments like the above will be deleted in future.

    Incidentally, American ginseng (Panax quinquefolius) can modulate brain stem function, and if you can find this, you might want to try it. You might become a new person.

    – Hip

  68. @ hip

    did you experience joints clicking, all my joints clicks and this really makes me worried. Could you suggest some treatment for this symptom? thank you very much

  69. Joint clicking can mean inflammation. I have had that with an injured joint until it fully healed. Once again, anti-infammatories would be good.

  70. This website was a revalation as to what I have been dealing with for over two years! No doctor would help and at the beginning I just wanted to off myself because of the depression and pyschological issues. Eventually I came to realize through trial and error that it was an infection and have learned how to cope in most ways but some aspects have never really improved, notably some depression and anxiety elements, neurological issues : numbness on left side of body in hand and feet, and clicking and tender joints now mostly on left side of body only. I have orded a number of treatment supplements listed on this site and beginning to experiment with them. The things that sem to help already namely fresh garlic, some use of tetracyclines and a number of other items (fish oil,zinc, neurotonin and wellbutrin as meds) A number of these I found while researching lyme and CFS treatments.

    My question would be: Can we ever expect the virus to resolve itself or go into remission. I am able to fiunction mostly but know my qualty of life has changed considerably. Has anyone seen it resolve to the point where they generally feel well?

    REPLY: Hi T

    “Can we ever expect the virus to resolve itself or go into remission”

    That is the hope that we all have.

    – Hip

  71. I am actually better in many ways than I was before I got the virus due to the Nutri-Energetic System which got rid of the fatigue, sore throat and thick mucous. I also have to keep on top of the probiotics to keep the bad bugs in my gut down or I get the anxiety, dizziness, and other symptoms of lack of probiotics. It is a constant fight with the virus over the good guys and bad guys in my gut but I am maintaining. I take a whole host of supplements that seem to help, stay away from sugar and refined foods and I live a fairly normal life that doesn’t involve exchanging body fluids with anyone. : )

  72. Cracking joints is not something to be worried about.

    See here for more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cracking_joints

    You might want to try something like chondroitin sulfate, which helps repair the joint cartilage. Chondroitin sulfate is also a pretty good “blood thinner” (anticoagulant for blood platelets), and people with CFS have problems with reduced blood flow (as well as reduced total blood volume, oddly enough). So blood thinners can help.

    I always find that the best supplements are those that help in multiple different ways.

  73. hip I got colsotrum pill not powder should I still take 7 grams worths or is a lower does suitable?

    also I wish I read your reply on niacin I thing it made me have an allergic reaction last night lol good old benadryl stopped it.

    REPLY: Unfortunately the colostrum pills are not good value for money. These pills cost something like 5 or 10 times more than bulk colostrum powder, gram for gram.

    In the US, try Symbiotics, Colostrum Plus Powder for bulk colostrum powder.

    – Hip

  74. Tellin you gang, add Larix to the list of good stuff to take. I am completely convinced at this point that it is the sole reason I have not gotten the bad flu going around work, which I have been exposed to for over a month now. For those just tuning in to this blog, not getting an office flu or cold, even when only a few people had it, has been unprecedented for me since getting this illness in 2007. The only thing I’ve been taking that is different during the last month was Larix, which I started taking at the end of December.


    REPLY: I bought some of the Swanson larch tree arabinogalactan supplement, and tried it for a few days. I need to try it on its own, preferably without taking too many other supps, to give it a full test. The above link says arabinogalactan is “believed to yield twice the protective potential as echinacea” – which is probably why you are not getting any colds, since echinacea is a great slayer of colds, and larch arabinogalactan would seem stronger than echinacea.

    I suggest that others here might want try larch tree arabinogalactan, at good doses for a few weeks, and give feedback on any general improvement in symptoms.

    A tantalizing statement I read: “stimulation of NK cell activity by larch arabinogalactan has been associated with recovery in certain cases of chronic fatigue syndrome” (ref: 1)

    – Hip

  75. On another note, anyone getting brown skin tags all over that sorta look like they could be cancer but don’t quite look like the three common types?

  76. I was wondering if enteric coated capsules work agents antibiotics. it is possible that they could make it harder for antibiotics to work?

    I think they kill all bacteria

  77. fernando,

    Enteric coated capsules, that is the capsule itself and not the contents, are perfectly safe and have no killing power. Otherwise they wouldn’t be used to deliver Probiotics to the intestines and bowel. The purpose of the enteric coating is to protect the Probiotics from gastrointestinal juices (digestive enzymes) and the HCL (hydrochloric acid) produced in the stomach, so that they will arive in the intestines and bowel unharmed and alive, where the capsule will finally dissolve and release the Probiotics to do their job, a significant part of which is to fortify and boost the immune system. As an example, the Lactobacillus salivarius strain of Probiotics effectively kills the Helicobacter pylori bacterium which is known to be a cause of stomach ulcers.

  78. LOL well I did not know that hip but I was more thinking for example I been prescribed the antibiotic doxycycline and from my understanding antibiotics kill all bacteria both good and bad. So my concern was that if i’m taking this antibiotic to kill bad bacteria that it might need to work harder to kill good bacteria too if i’m adding that in my body. so maybe I should wait tell i’m done with the antibiotics to take the good bacteria. But maybe my thinking is wrong. Dose probiotic bacteria work good with antibiotics?

  79. fernando,

    This is Beach Man and not hip. I believe you just responded to my Post about the use of Probiotics in enteric coated capsules just above your Post. The Probiotics will not lessen or decrease the effectiveness of the antibiotic. However, in order to lessen the killing effect of the antibiotic on the Probiotics do not take the antibiotic and the Probiotics at the same time. Take the Probiotics on an empty stomach two or more hours after you take the antibiotic.

  80. O sorry thanks for the response beach man you cleared it all up for me I will make sure to do this when taking my probiotics!!!!

  81. Anyone taking high doses of Vitamin B3 should make sure they follow Hip’s advice and take the niacinamide form of the vitamin and NOT the niacin form. Too much of the niacin form over an extended period of time can damage your Liver. The following CAUTION about that is quoted from the book, “Prescription for NUTRITIONAL HEALING” written by Dr. James F. Balch, M.D. (a well known and reputable integrative physician) and his wife, Phyllis A. Balch, C.N.C.

    “People who are pregnant or who suffer from diabetes, glaucoma, gout, liver disease, or peptic ulcers should use niacin supplements with caution. Amounts over 500 milligrams daily may cause liver damage if taken for prolonged periods.”

    Again, this CAUTION pertains to the NIACIN form of Vitamin B3 and NOT to the NIACINAMIDE form.

  82. Yes as as to skin tags I’ve got em and other weird skin erruptions with a small red dot in center, sometimes two red dots that like like a bite. Thes red spots develop and deepen and eventually have a knot of hard tissue underneath. The brown age, liver spots, skin tages look bad and seem to be part of the premature aging associated.

  83. LIVER DAMAGE: As far as I am aware, both the niacin and niacinamide forms of vitamin B3 may cause some liver damage at prolonged, long-term high doses of over 3 grams a day (the damage is reversible once you stop taking B3). Timed-release tablets pose a much high risk for this damage, so avoid timed-release. But anyway if you keep below 3 grams, you should be be fine.

    Niacin (at a dose of 50 to 200 mg three times daily) is very useful for anyone with high blood pressure, since it dilates and opens all the peripheral arteries, flushing blood to your peripheries and skin, and this helps combat blood pressure.

    SKIN TAGS: note that skin tags are not the same as liver spots (brown age spots), and neither of these are the same as moles.

  84. Vitamin B3 has been used as a treatment for schizophrenia and psychosis. See here:


    Interestingly, this article states that one woman took 60 grams of niacin in one go (and was fine).

    Another good treatment for psychosis type symptoms is high dose vitamin C powder, at around 5 grams, taken orally three times a day. You can take higher doses of vitamin C intravenously without problem, but taken orally you reach bowel tolerance at around a total of 15 grams of C a day – that is to say, you get diarrhea if you go much higher (but this limit varies from person to person).

    You can take both vitamin B3 (1 gram) and vitamin C (5 grams) together three times a day, as a way to treat any psychosis type symptoms you may experience. A touch of psychosis is often experienced in anxiety disorder.

    But I found the better long-term solution for both anxiety and psychosis caused by this virus is lowering overall brain inflammation with anti-inflammatories. And remember, in many cases, brain inflammation is kicked off by gut inflammation, hence the focus on gut health with pre and probiotics.

    Nevertheless, high dose vitamin B3 and vitamin C are good backups that act fast (within hours) when you need them

  85. Beach Man, are you a chronic fatigue syndrome / anxiety disorder suffer as well, or do you just have general interests in alternative and orthomolecular medicine, etc?

  86. is it cool to take colostrum with your probiotics? cuz they are both supposed to be on an empty stomach.

    REPLY: Yep, that’s fine. – Hip

  87. @ hip

    thank you 4 your advice and i will try that. Besides, I guess the loose joints may be one cause 4 the cracking joints as well.

  88. Dr. Ian Lipkin, can hopefully figure this virus out:

    DR. W. IAN LIPKIN: A Man From Whom Viruses Can’t Hide

    REPLY: Yes, Lipkin was chosen by the National Institutes of Health (NIH) to work on the XMRV case, and I hope he will also get interested in other viruses associated with CFS, like herpes 6 and enteroviruses. Even before the NIH called him, he apparently started working on XMRV just on his own, simply out of interest and scientific curiosity.

    Unlike the bungling incompetence of the CDC’s handling of chronic fatigue syndrome, the NIH are really the world’s premier medical research centers, and you can expect only the very highest quality, innovative science from the NIH. The fact that the NIH have now taken an interest in XMRV and chronic fatigue syndrome is great. It is an indication that CFS is coming out of the Dark Ages and hopefully eventually away from the damaging psychosomatic interpretations of the Wessely School.

    – Hip

  89. Has anyone noticed an increase in severity of symptoms as use of probiotics and prebiotics are started? I am wondering if the body reacts negatively initally as they are used?

    REPLY: Usually the advice with prebiotics like inulin, etc is to start slowly, and build up to the full dose over a few days, to allow the bowels to adjust.

    – Hip

  90. Does anyone experience there ears getting plugged up badly with some pressure? not sure if this is from treatment or virus but energy and body feel a lot better so far. Doing handstand agents wall seem to make my ears feel better.

  91. I have experienced ringing ears, plugged and blocked ears, and pressure from the beginning of beginning sick. When fist infected noise drove me nuts. When the virus is really active I notice shortly after rising that noises bother me after I stand up from rising. I believe it is a part of brain inflamation response.

  92. Just wanted to say I see some positive effects of anti inflammatories today and feel this site has been a godsend!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Curcumin and Boswella sp? and probiotics and prebiotics are causing major sinus dripping which I am interpeting as reduction in inflammation of brain. This virus truly is about inflammation and I have hope now that if not able to completly get rid of it I will be able to not have terrible anxiety issues. They have made my life a living hell for two and half years!!!!! Thank you so much for starting this site!!

    REPLY: Hi T

    Very pleased to hear that the anti-inflammatory approach is starting to work for you. The sheer living hell of extreme anxiety states is something that you would never have believed could exist – until you experience them yourself personally.

    The only sad thing is that there are no doubt thousands of people out there still in this sheer hell, not knowing that inflammation is the cause, and that an anti-inflammatory approach may significantly help them.

    Not all anxiety disorders will be caused by inflammation, there will be other causes, but I suspect inflammation is one of the major mechanisms that precipitates anxiety.

    – Hip

  93. From what I understand, the tubes that drain the ear go down the sides of the neck. What I do is massage the area under the ear and behind the jaw, somewhat vigorously but with only moderate pressure. It helps but is not a cure.

  94. 1. 16S rRNA\DNA real-time PCR orientired on specific genus\types with further RNA\DNA sequencing if positive PCR amplification.

    2.Empiric antibacterial therapy(theoretically based on supposed variants of dg) must be used widely by visitors here to make us understand what(and how\to what degree) works and what is not on STATISTIC basis.

    Clinical monitoring is mandatory during therapy(at least whole blood analysis every 5 days).

    3.Persons who have enlarged\palpable lymph nodes at least 0,4cm should make a biopsy of lymph node with further microbiological, bacteriological, histological and if possible molecular(16S wide range rRNA) studies.


    @ HIp

    I’m not angry, i’m just pragmatic and talking what i’m thinking about things and people. And i don’t care if my words can make somebody feel bad because of truth they hear.

    REPLY: Kozak believes that his symptoms may be due to bacteria such as Mycobacteria, Actinomycetes or Corynebacterium – which of course may be true in Kozak’s case.

    Mycobacteria are intracellular bacteria – they live inside human cells – and so they are hard to treat with antibiotics, and the immune-system has difficulties in getting to them in their hiding places.

    Kozak, why don’t you try something like the Marshall Protocol, which is designed to increase the Th1 intracellular response of the immune system. Many people cannot fight intracellular pathogens because their immune system is shifted in to the Th2 extracellular response.

    So a protocol that shifts your immune response from Th2 to Th1 may help fight these intracellular pathogens.

    The Marshall Protocol was specifically designed to treat intractable Mycobacterial infections.

    Sarcoidosis (a lung disease that is sometimes fatal) is though to be caused by Mycobacteria, and the Marshall Protocol was first developed for treating the infection behind sarcoidosis.

    Azithromycin is one treatment you said worked very well for you: azithromycin is only antibiotic I know that will shift from Th2 to Th1 – this may be the reason it worked for you, because it is immunomodulatory for Th1/Th2. Azithromycin is a well-known treatment for CFS, because CFS is characterized by Th2 being strong and Th1 being weak.

    Amazingly, azithromycin has a plasma half-life of nearly 3 days, so you can be very economical when using azithromycin (only need to take it every other day). Dr Marshall said that in cells, azithromycin has a half-life 45 days.

    There are other drugs/supplements that also shift the immune system from Th2 to Th1, including: beta sitosterol, Immunovir (isoprinosine), inosine, Epicor (Saccharomyces cerevisiae yeast), and antihistamines like cetirizine

    – Hip

  95. [[[ Unfortunately I have had to delete this comment, as flame wars are not helpful here. They go on for too many pages. – Hip

  96. ok leave kozack bs up and take mine down. makes sense

    REPLY: No, I have deleted the highly offensive stuff from Kozak’s comments too.

    – Hip

  97. @ Hip,

    The first question is not about Mycobacteria, Actinomycetes or Corynebacterium.

    The question is about etiology: bacterial or not.

    What kind of bacteria – is the second question for most readers here.

    Marshal protocol is not curative and any another one too if you don’t know for sure what are going to treat, because without appropriate antibiotic, dose and duration you can’t cure the condition.

    Of course you can try Marshalls protocol, “Sympsons” protocol or any another protocol or supplements or etc…. BUT…

    ….life is going on, Hip….

    Sure, maybe in 20-30 years you body will finally be cured by itself on supplements, protocols etc…but till that time you can became and teeth free, joints creaking, deaf, stupid farter. )

    But finally after loosing all teeth and ear you possibly will not have symptoms. ))

    I think that looks like not good prospect, right?

    So the main question is the price of time all of us pay now and main trouble that many of us are already forget how do they felt when were totally healthy.

    Mister E asked me what i can offer – i have answered him.

    Yes, i’m on the point that there is no chronic virus diseases exist. But 2 of 3 variants usable even in case of viral etiology….well i don’t think that Mister E understand this.

    REPLY: In my opinion, you are making life very hard for yourself by not FIRST trying to reduce your symptoms. My life was TOTAL hell, every day, for about 4 years. Hell as is Dante’s Inferno.

    Now, my hellish symptoms are 90% cured, because of the anti-inflammatory protocols I found worked.

    So now my life is not great, I still have chronic fatigue syndrome, but I am not in hell.

    Do you want to stay in hell?

    I have suggested to you several times to try the same anti-inflammatory protocol. This protocol can make your existence HERE AND NOW so much better. Of course, we want to find the perfect 100% cure, but why are you refusing the possibility of a 90% reduction in hellish symptoms, right NOW?

    If you do not treat yourself NOW, brain inflammation will destroy all your neurons, one by one, until you have no brain left! Excitotoxic neuron death.

    Fix yourself NOW, today, and then, with a calmer, balanced, clear mind, you will be able to find your 100% cure much more easily. You are probably functioning with only a small part of your mind’s normal abilities, due to extreme anxiety symptoms. Fix this now, and you will be infinitely more efficient.

    I have no desire to argue; my motivation is simply to convince you to try the treatment that may rescue you TODAY from hell.

    – Hip

  98. Hip

    I am sure you have done research on Alpha 1-antitrypsin (A1T1) “It protects tissues from enzymes of inflammatory cells, especially neutrophil elastase”. Is there anything that you can tell me about ways to stimulate the production of A1T1?

    My skin is looking years older every month and I am really hoping for a solution. I suspect that the brain inflammation that seems to be integral to all of our symptoms may also be related to the apparent lack of A1T1 but I am only speculating.


    REPLY: Hi D

    I don’t know much about alpha 1-antitrypsin, but I will look into it, and will post up any info I find.

    I take that you have alpha 1-antitrypsin deficiency, which is a genetic condition.

    – Hip

  99. Question for you folks. One thing that has also been a revalation for me is why my gums have receded while flossing and brushing. Any suggestions for dealing with this issue to save teeth and gums. Thanks for all your help.

  100. @T

    I have also had this happen to me. Also my teeth became much more yellow. My dentist asked me if I had started any new medication especially antidepressants because they are known to cause this problem. I don’t so it was just a rapid change.

    So, coming from this point of view, I could see that whatever messes with brain chemicals could have an effect on teeth. Possibly whatever we have going on weakens our enamel or dries our mouth out. My guess is there could be a lot of reasons.

    I’ve cut out a lot of simple carbohydrates including milk, juice and fruit (and beer), and I keep well hydrated with water. Also, getting sleep, exercise, nutritious diet and lower stress. I feel better overall with these things, and I’m sure they have an effect on most of the negative crap going on, including this one.

  101. To help with the gum disease chew xylitol gum. I have become a constant gum chewer and find it helps keep the bacteria in the mouth in check. Need to refresh it regularly with a new piece. Also you might look for xylitol hard candy. Xylitol is antibacterial and I don’t know its effect on probiotics. It will cause loose stool in higher quantities. I also use a mouth wash made of four parts peroxide and one part original formula Listerine. Copy cat brands are missing some essential ingredients so substitutions are not as effective. I also add it to the water in a dental irrigator (water pic thingy) when gums get inflamed.

  102. Eric,

    i agree with you that diet is very important. probably most important thing. With eating sugars and milk, antiinflamatory drugs are of very little value. Lower consumption of meat, especialy beef may be as well good approach. I am convinced that CFS may be cured purely with a good diet. Efcourse some antiimflamatorie a imunity stimalants may be of some use but only a minor one.

  103. @phooph

    You have reminded me that my tongue can get coated with white so that even a scraper does not get it off. I use a capful of Hydrogen Peroxide on the tongue for 30 seconds a few times a week and it has magically taken care of this minor but long-standing issue for me.

    @ Anon

    I completely agree with you. As an addendum, I’ve found that while there are some universal rules with nutrition (aka trans-fats, sugar, and plenty of others) that there is some change from person to person. Some have the genetic makeup to handle higher amounts of fat or simple sugars. And I think most people have some form of food intolerance that they may never figure out. A good guess of your food genetics would be to eat what your genetic ancestors have traditionally eaten, and then experiment from there. For example, heavier on the rice and sweet potatoes for someone of asian ancestry, more fish and cheese from those regions of Europe. It has helped me.

    Another thing that’s worked for me is to eat mostly the same things every day. I used to try and eat a bit of everything, but I find that focusing on just a few foods for .. most of my meals works really well in controlling my symptoms. My example: Eggs, butter, Homemade sauerkraut (money addition for me, it is my ketchup), wheat, cheese, spinach, bacon, and beans work great with me. I’m hungry after writing that sentence. I have slowly learned to avoid soy, corn and surprisingly bell peppers too. There are plenty of foods that I don’t avoid, like, still eat, and yet don’t eat every day like beef, ice cream and cooked tomatoes.

    In terms of your comment of lower consumption of meat, I agree. We crave meat for the proteins, but also for the minerals that are prevalent in them. I find myself craving meat much less when I eat organ meat maybe because I satisfy what my body needs. My taste for it has developed a lot since day 1. Unfortunately, I still think it tastes worse than regular meat.

    What turned me on to this idea was learning that the alpha males in many wild animals get first choice on a kill. They go for the liver first, other organs second, and muscle last. Dogs and cats also eat liver in all of their foods. Of course we are not wild animals, but I get the impression that our layers of social conditioning about what to eat and when get in the way while their natural instincts have lead them to eat the best parts.

    I hope everyone is still reading this, because this is a very important change for me too. Since adding in my fermented food (sauerkraut) I have found much better digestion and for whatever reason I have been feeling better mentally. There are natural bacteria in these foods that help support the bacteria you have in your gut. You might call it the original probiotic. This is the same bacteria that is in the lactobacillus yogurt that is popular now, except it is in every single (unpasteurized) fermented food. I’ve only made sauerkraut because I haven’t gotten bored of it, it’s easy cheap and very nutritious. I like that it adds a lot of flavor to foods without adding sugar or processed ingredients and is one of the healthiest vegetables. I said it is like my ketchup earlier – here is what I enjoy it on. Eggs, pizza, chili, spinach, organ meats, chicken salad, burgers… The flavor is one of the most interesting things I’ve eaten. It complements foods very well. Strangely enough, jarred sauerkraut has always tasted mediocre at best to me. Homemade is very different.

  104. Yes I agree that proper diet may vary from person to person and it probably varies as well with the intensity of the infection. Maybe a little bit surprisingly I have found that fats do not harm so much as some types of proteins. The list of foods that i am trying to avoid because of bad experience related to the diseases:

    1. ANy fermented foods including mustard, vinegear, yoghurts , mushrooms (some exception include sauerkraut as you already mentioned)

    2. Artificial butter (hydrogenated, Iam not sure about correct english word for this). This is especialy harmfull I would say

    3. Milk and any milk products

    4. Wheat products

    5. High fructose foods (probably due to bad liver function).

    6. Sugars

    On the other hand rise, corn, potatoes (even french fries), many kinds of meat (even containing fats) do not cause almost nay worsening of the symptoms to me.

    As for meat value, it is generaly believed to provide complete nutrition value (Simply because its structure is very simmilar to that of humans. So the animal tissue provides all components for proper development and maintanance of human tissue.

  105. @ Anon

    I also find that fats do well with me, maybe better than meat.

    2. Artificial butter with the hyrogenated fats are also known as trans-fats. Many studies have shown these are very hurtful to our bodies.

    5. Many fruits and sweet vegetables have high levels of fructose in them naturally, so you might want to eat them in moderation (I do).

    6. I agree.

    I don’t drink milk usually because it has a lot of sugar. Cheese and wheat are great with me, rice and potatoes are OK, corn is terrible! I guess we just all need to experiment and find out what works best.

  106. does anyone know if Magnesium has helped with symptoms or is worth trying to take?

    REPLY: High-dose transdermal magnesium (magnesium applied to the skin) does help, and this remedy is often used for chronic fatigue syndrome. Normal oral magnesium tablets are OK, but the dose is a bit too low (you can only take around 500 – 600 mg a day of magnesium orally; if you take much more, you reach bowel tolerance, and get diarrhea). However via the skin you can probably absorb around 2000 mg a day. Transdermal magnesium has a fairly strong anti-anxiety action, and helps with energy production the mitochondria of cells.

    – Hip

  107. Also hip is the treatments page supposed to be like grape seed extract or curcumin like for example one at a time or is taking all of them ok? cuz that’s what iv’e been doing. All the one’s you highlighted for me Iv’e been taking at recommended does. I feel a lot better have more energy. Been around sick people and not gotten sick. but still get ear pain light headaches and this prickly itchy feeling. IF ANYONE HAS ANY IDEAS ON HOW TO TRY AND STOP A PRICKLY ITACHY/BUBLE feeling ON SKIN PLEASE LET ME KNOW. Anxiety and depression have enormously decreased. The saffron works wonders for a quick action on attacks. NADH works grate when having worse days too. But it’s only been a little less then a week so it’s hard to really say whats doing what.

  108. Pleased to hear you are improving, Fernando.

    It is interesting that you are getting pretty much exactly the benefits from these supplements that I detailed.

    There is no problem with taking the both grape seed extract and curcumin, it gives a stronger effect. All the supplements on the treatment page are very safe, and you can experiment with them to find the best combinations for you.

    The prickly feelings on the skin – often called “pins and needles” – have the medical name paresthesia. Paresthesias are typically the result of mild nerve damage.

    I find these paresthesia sensations very irritating, and I would like to find a good way to treat them. I have found that the herb milk thistle (Silybum marianum) helps (to a degree), when taken in high doses of 1000 mg twice daily (or more). Milk thistle helps rebuild and regenerate nerves. Vitamin B complex may help also these nerves too.

    But I am still looking for a supplement that really works well to fix these paresthesias.

    If anyone else has found something that works, please let us know.

    Oxymatrine: two or three of us here tried oxymatrine, but we did not see much result. However, I think this varies for person to person, so you may as well try oxymatrine – it may just work for you. You need to take oxymatrine for a few months before it begins to work. I think you may have to buy it online, unless someone here knows of a store that sells it.

  109. How does that work? u take Oxymatrine for a few months and it could stop it or make it better. Or is it like take it for a few months and if it works you keep taking it?

    On another note I’ve been prescribed Gabapentin which is the only thing that stops the prickly itchy feeling. One in morning one at night reduced it. two in the morning/night made it so I no longer cared about it but still could feel it some. Three in the m/n made it go away except for now and then I get a little bit But I think thats cuz I stupidly I tried to get off it twice in the month I’ve been taking it. But it comes straight back when I stop. My doctor said it’s really safe but I researched that some people say it’s not. In my experience I say it is just listen to how the doctor tells you to take it.( 1-1) (1-2)( 2-2) (2-3) (3-3). You can stop increasing if it works good before 3-3. It made me spacy and kinda goofy at first and then I tried to up the doce from 2-2 to 3-3 and had to go back down to 2-2 for a little bit cuz I had a major depression attack which some say it can give you. I think this was more do to with the virus and the fact that I had some real shit to be depressed about but I notice that when I was first was taking it that if I got happy I got real happy and if I got sad I got real sad or if I got angry I got real angry. I’m not sure if it was hip’s treatment that has made me handle the Gabapentin better or the fact that my body needed time to get familiar with it. Most likely both But I need to ask my doctor when I see him in a week if this was supposed to stop it or just make it better. To tell the truth I was so depressed and had so much trouble focusing at the time when he prescribed it to me. I just thought it was not gonna work so I was not really listening to him. Stupid I know but my fear is that if my body is telling me something is wrong by giving me a prickly feeling and I’m taking Gabapentin to stop it well then I’m not really taking care of the problem that is wrong with my body I’m just covering up the symptom tell something worse happens. Also my doctor said that this prickly itching feeling is an actual form of restless leg syndrome and thats what he thinks it is at this point. The fact that it works supports his hypothesis but only a little. It means my nerves are screwed up but not why. pinched nerves possible something else or this virus very possible considering my other symptoms. you also build a tolerance to Gabapentin and I hear mix reviews weather it is safe to take for long periods of time. Some say they have been on it for 6 years with no problems other say it could cause your normal brain chemistry to get damaged. well it’s helped me in the mean time especially when I got to sit and work for 12 hours straight. I think it’s worth trying.

    REPLY: Hi Fernando

    The precise mechanism of oxymatrine is as yet unknown, but Dr Chia suggests it is an immunomodulator – that is to say, it finely adjusts the way the immune system works, so as to make the immune system fight viruses more.

    One theory of why people cannot clear a virus from their body is that their immune system is stuck in Th2-mode, but the immune system needs to be in Th1-mode to clear viruses within human cells. Oxymatrine is believed to work by shifting the immune balance from Th2 to Th1, so that it now focuses on fighting the viruses inside cells. Essentially, the Th1 mode is for fighting viruses and other pathogens that are inside your cells, and the Th2 mode if for fighting pathogens that live outside your cells.

    Dr Chia’ experience with oxymatrine suggests that if you do not see benefits within the first two or three months of taking oxymatrine, you will not see any benefits at all, no matter how long you take it. So this makes it easy: you just take oxymatrine for a two months or so to test it, and if this herb does work for you, great, you can keep taking it (note: you will get worse again if you stop). However, if it does not give benefits after two months or so, then it this means it just does not work for you, so stop taking it.

    Chia says that sometimes people take oxymatrine for say six weeks with not improvement, but then all of a sudden, they wake up one day and feel as if they have the flu (high fever). This fever lasts for a day or so, and is a sign that their immune system has started to fight the viruses. After a few days of fever, then feel better than they have felt for a long time. With other people, the improvements they experience with oxymatrine are more gradual

    There are other good immunomodulators to consider: like azithromycin, isoprinosine, that also shift the immune system from Th2 to Th1. Isoprinosine is used a lot by people with chronic fatigue syndrome .

    Regarding the prickly feelings (paresthesias): you might be right that gabapentin (Neurontin) is kind of masking the symptoms rather than addressing their cause. It might be good as an interim solution.

    I would like to know what precisely is causing these paresthesias. I suspect they are caused by a toxin that the virus is generating, and that this toxin is damaging the nerves in the muscles and skin, leading to a sort of “electrical static” or “short circuit” in the nerves, which we feel as these prickly sensations. If we could guess what this toxin is, there may be something we can take to neutralize it, and and so protecting our peripheral nerves.

    – Hip

  110. but defiantly wish there was something that would take care of it and not just mask it which is all it seems to be doing.

    Also sorry hip for all the miss spellings, bad grammar and missed punctuations. I’m really dyslexic and bad with that stuff not trying to make the site look ignorant.

    REPLY: Don’t worry about your spelling. Einstein was also dyslexic, which probably contributed to his amazing originality of thought.

    Since I caught this virus, I found that I have lost a lot of my word-abilites: I have forgotten the meaning of many words, I get confused with the rules of grammar, and I have a considerable difficulty spelling words sometimes (I have to use the spell-checker all the time).

    – Hip

  111. To completely eliminate gum disease and/or inflammation of your gums and to halt the recession of your gumline and reduce the size of the recession pockets in your gums, use Peri-Gum and take a good comprehensive bone/calcium supplement along with an Ostivone Ipraflavone supplement. To read about and purchase Peri-Gum go here and note the Links on the left hand side of the page – they contain all of the information about Peri-Gum that you will need:


    For an excellent comprehensive bone/calcium supplement read about the Life Extension Foundation’s product, Bone Restore:


    However, if you are not a Life Extension member and you don’t want to pay the $75 membership fee, you can purchase Bone Restore at an excellent price from iherb.com – also be sure to read the Reviews:


    To read the Reviews click on the Reviews tab or Link, or just replace that last 0 after the = in the above url with 1, so that the last number sequence reads 6648?at=1

    For an excellent Ostivone Ipraflavone supplement read about Enzymatic Therapy’s Ostivone Ipraflavone and read the Reviews at:


    However for a better price go to swansonvitamins.com:


    As already mentioned by others, the regular use of products containing xylitol will help to maintain good oral health. To read about and purchase Xlear’s sugar free Spry Gum Spearmint with xylitol at a reduced price, go here and read the Reiews:


    For an excellent mouthwash which contains xylitol, take a look at Xlear’s Spry Oral Rinse Blue and read the Reviews – for those suffering from SORE THROAT AND/OR EAR PAIN, be sure to read the fourth (4th) review down by Chucho from TN and note the protocol he followed that worked for him:


    For the sugar free Clear version, which some prefer over the Blue, go here:


    Once you have completely eliminated any gum disease or gum inflammation you can discontinue the use of the Peri-Gum and just continue with the rest of the protocol (along with the discontinuance of sugary foods, drink, etc.) to help maintain and actually improve the quality of your bones and teeth (provided you still have your natural ones).l

  112. To my previous Post I would add that the maintenance protocol should include a good multivitamin with a well balanced diet as a minimum. Also additional Vitamin C with or without Bioflavonoids wouldn’t hurt, especially for maintaining good gums health. However two other supplements I would include are the Life Extension Foundation’s Super Vitamin K with Advanced K2 Complex and their Vitamin D3 supplement in the 1000 IU capsules. Read about the Super Vitamin K2 here:


    Also read the Reviews about it at iherb.com where again, if you are not a Life Extension member and don’t wish to pay the $75 fee to become one, you can a purchase the Super Vitamin K2 at a reduced price:


    And just substitute a 0 for the last 1 after the = so that the last number sequence reads 14619?at=0 to go to the information section.

    Read about Life Extension’s 1000 IU Vitamin D3 supplement here:


    Then go to the following Link and read the first listed article entitled, “Michael F. Holick: The Pioneer of Vitamin D Research – Life Extension”, and among other things, note what he says about recommended Vitamin D levels:


    Or you may want to try this Link:


    Then read the REPORT about “Lowering Gingivitis Risk” and Promoting Bone Health” and in particular for those of you who have been diagnosed with FIBROMYALGIA or who think you may be suffering from FIBROMYALGIA, the section entitled, “Alleviating Musculoskeletal Pain” and note what it says bout VITAMIN D DEFICIENCY OFTEN BEING MISDIAGNOSED AS FIBROMYALGIA !! Hopefully, that may be your problem rather than actual fibromyalgia.


    Then for an enlightening article about Vitamin D3 levels and the Government’s position regarding same, and further information about Vitamin D’s effect on inflammation, immunity, osteoporosis, and stress fractures, go to the following Link:


    And hopefully, all the above Links work. Good luck all, and good night.

  113. I apologize for the above omission and misspellings. Oh for a preview and edit function on this website!

    REPLY: I have fixed the omission.

    Yes, it is unfortunate that they have no edit or preview functions available for posters here.

    – Hip

  114. Just one other thing for the protocol to halt the recession of your gums and eliminate the gum disease and/or inflammation which is responsible for producing the pockets which push back the gumline. First, I am assuming that you already use dental floss to thoroughly clean between your teeth before brushing. If not, start now. I find that Johnson & Johnson’s Reach brand of waxed, unflavored dental floss is very easy to use if your teeth are tightly spaced. If they are well spaced and there are no catching points between the teeth from fillings or wear which would tear the floss, you can probably use the unwaxed version, whether J&J’s or some other brand.

    Then after brushing, instead of rinsing your toothbrush and putting it into a toothbrush holder, set aside a tall water glass and fill it about 4 inches deep with generic 3% Hydrogen Peroxide which you can readily purchase over the counter at any pharmacy, e.g., Walgreens, Rite Aide, CVS, or Walmart, Target, etc. Then after rinsing your toothbrush, wipe off the handle up to the bristles with a paper towel and place the toothbrush into the glass with the bristles head first into the bottom of the glass. Keep it there to soak in the full strength solution until it’s time to again use it. Then just rinse it off before applying your toothpaste, powder, toothsoap, or whatever you use.

    You can refresh the Hydrogen Peroxide two or three times a week by simply adding more of it to the glass. However, make it a habit as well to thoroughly wash the glass out and do a complete renewal of the Hydrogen Peroxide at least once a week.

    That routine will make a major difference in both the elimination of the gingivitis/inflammation by using the Peri-Gum, etc. and in your maintenance program to prevent any gum disease/inflammation from reoccurring, and in preventing any further recession of your gumline.

  115. I am not sure if the H2S theory was not already discussed here. (if so, please take this info as redundant). But there is some interesting article about it:


    REPLY: I took the Dr De Meirlier’s Neurotoxic Metabolite Test, a home test which measures H2S, and I came back as a strong positive for H2S. This hydrogen sulfide connection to CFS is still very much a new idea in CFS research. Even if you are high in H2S, there is not all that much you can do about it, except try to lower the levels of bacteria in your gut that may be producing the H2S.

    – Hip

  116. Ok everybody, week two using both inflammatory treatments. Fairly large improvment in anxiety levels. What a difference. It would appear I am getting a huge amount of loose drainage from my head which I presume is effect of infammation reducing. Also use of probiotics and prebiotics takes some adjustment but I believe here again I see major improments in serenity although it seems that psyllium should be taken with a large amount of water throughout day. Thanks to the creator of this site, you are helping me to get my life back slowly. Thank you!

    REPLY: Good to see a satisfied “customer”.

    Are you taking the Saccharomyces boulardii yeast probiotic too, as well as the normal bacterial probiotics? Saccharomyces boulardii (I use the Jarrow brand, 3 to 6 capsules a day) seems to have a very powerful anti-inflammatory / anti-anxiety effect. If I were banished to a desert island, and could only take one supplement to treat the anxiety, it would probably be Saccharomyces boulardii.

    – Hip

  117. There is an essay talking about CFS I guess it might be helpful

    REPLY: Thanks Yc. This essay, and similar essays by Prof. Garth L. Nicolson, are available here – Hip

    Diagnosis and Integrative Treatment of Intracellular Bacterial Infections in Chronic Fatigue and Fibromyalgia Syndromes, Gulf War Illness, Rheumatoid Arthritis and other Chronic Illnesses

    Garth L. Nicolson, PhD, Marwan Y. Nasralla, PhD, A. Robert Franco, MD, Nancy L. Nicolson, PhD, Robert Erwin, MD, Richard Ngwenya, MD, and Paul A. Berns, MD


    Bacterial and viral infections are associated with many chronic illnesses as causative agents, cofactors or more likely as opportunistic infections in immune suppressed individuals. The prevalence of invasive pathogenic Mycoplasma species infections (and possibly other bacterial infections, such as Chlamydia, Borrelia, etc.) in patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fibromyalgia Syndrome, Gulf War Illness, Rheumatoid Arthritis and other chronic illnesses was significantly higher than in healthy controls. When we examined chronic illness patients for multiple Mycoplasma species infections, we found that almost all patients had multiple intracellular infections, suggesting that multiple bacterial infections commonly occur in certain chronic illness patients. These patients generally respond to particular antibiotics if administered long-term, but an important part of their recovery involves nutritional supplementation with appropriate vitamins, minerals, immune enhancement and other supplements. Nutraceuticals appear to be necessary for recovery and maintenance of a strong immune system. In addition, patients should be removed from potentially immune-depressing drugs, such as some antidepressants, to allow recovery of their immune systems. Other chronic infections (viral), may also be involved in various chronic fatigue illnesses with or without mycoplasmal and other bacterial infections, and these multiple infections could be important in causing patient morbidity and resulting difficulties in treating these illnesses.


    Most if not all debilitating chronic illnesses are characterized by the presence of chronic fatigue (1), the most commonly reported medical complaint of all patients seeking medical care (2). The fatigue syndromes, such as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS or Myalgic Encephalomyelitis [ME]), Fibromyalgia Syndrome (FMS) and Gulf War Illnesses (GWI), share many complex, multi-organ signs and symptoms (3-6), including immune system abnormalities (7), but are distinguishable as separate syndromes that have muscle and overall fatigue as major signs. These syndromes usually have overlapping signs and symptoms, including muscle pain, chronic fatigue, headaches, memory loss, nausea, gastrointestinal problems, joint pain, vision problems, breathing problems, depression, low grade fevers, skin disorders, tissue swelling, chemical sensitivities, among others (5, 6, 8). Because of the complex nature of these illnesses, many patients are often diagnosed with multiple syndromes, and their potential to recover from their chronic illness is usually poor at best.

    Chronic illness patients usually have cognitive problems, such as short-term memory loss, depression, difficulty concentrating and psychological problems that can result in practitioners diagnosing chronic illness patients with somatoform disorders rather than organic problems (6, 8). Thus due to the lack of definitive laboratory or clinical tests that could identify the cause(s) of chronic illnesses, such disorders are thought to be caused for the most part by psychological stressors. In fact, emotional stress is often an important factor in somatoform disorders, and stress itself can have many effects on the hormonal and immune systems that could be detrimental in virtually any chronic illness (9). But we feel strongly that stress alone is unlikely to cause most of the chronic illnesses discussed here, the most classic being GWI (6, 8), where battlefield stress was promoted as the cause of the illness (10). GWI patients are often diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), but the evidence that stress or PTSD is the source of GWI is based on the assumption that veterans must have suffered from stress by virtue of the stressful environment in which they found themselves during the Gulf War (10). The notion that stress is the major factor in GWI or indeed in other chronic illnesses, we feel, is not supported by most evidence that suggests that these illnesses were caused by toxic exposures (10, 11).

    There is growing awareness that the chronic fatigue illnesses, such as CFS/ME, FMS, GWI and certain autoimmune illnesses, such as Rheumatoid Arthritis (RA), among others, can have an infectious nature that is either responsible (causative) for the illness, a cofactor for the illness (required but not the only causative factor) or more likely appears as an opportunistic infection(s) responsible for aggravating or causing patient morbidity (8, 11, 12). There are several reasons for this notion, including the nonrandom or clustered appearance of the illnesses, often in immediate family members, the course and signs/symptoms of the illnesses and their responses to therapies based on treatments directed at infectious agents and enhancement of immune responses. Most chronic fatigue illnesses are difficult to treat and do not have effective therapies, and these patients rarely recover from their illnesses (11), causing in some cases catastrophic economic problems. Here we will discuss methods for diagnosing chronic infections in patients with CFS/ME, FMS, GWI, RA and other chronic illnesses and offer some suggestions for appropriate treatments directed at some of the chronic infections that play important roles in these illnesses.


    Most chronic illnesses have complex but relatively nonspecific signs and symptoms that are not characteristic for a particular disease. However, other chronic illnesses, such as RA, are well established in their diagnostic profiles (13, 14). One difference between some of the most common chronic illnesses appears to be in the severity of particular signs and symptoms. For example, in CFS/ME essentially all patients complain of chronic fatigue and joint pain, stiffness and soreness, whereas in FMS essentially all patients complain of muscle and overall pain, soreness and weakness. But when secondary signs and symptoms of these chronic illnesses are compared, they look very similar (6, 8). For the most part, the signs/symptom profiles of CFS/ME, FMS, GWI illnesses are similar (Fig. 1). Thus the chronic illnesses under discussion here have overlapping signs and symptoms, suggesting that these illnesses may be related (8). In addition, CFS/ME, FMS and GWI patients often show increased sensitivities to various environmental irritants and chemicals and enhanced allergic responses, suggesting that their immune systems are, at least in part, dysfunctional. This is supported by laboratory studies on the natural immune and other immunological abnormalities in chronic illness patients (7).

    The overlapping signs and symptoms of many chronic illness patients are easily documented. For example, the patient signs/symptoms data presented in Figure 1 were obtained using patient Illness Survey Forms to determine common signs and symptoms at the time when blood was drawn from patients for analysis. In this figure the intensity of approximately 120 patient signs and symptoms prior to and after onset of illness were recorded on a 10-point rank scale (0-10, extreme). The data were then arranged into 29 different signs and symptoms groups and were considered positive if the average value after onset of illness was two or more points higher than prior to the onset of illness. The CFS/ME and FMS patients had complex signs and symptoms that were similar to those reported for GWI, and the presence of rheumatic signs and symptoms in each of these disorders indicates that there are also some similarities to RA (13-15) (Fig. 1). Some differences were noted, however, when patients with chronic illnesses without evidence of intracellular bacterial infections were compared to the above groups (Fig. 1). The data suggest that patients with intracellular bacterial infections have more complex clinical signs/symptoms.

    In our signs/symptom analyses it was not unusual to find immediate family members who displayed similar chronic signs and symptoms. For example, we found that the spouses and children of GWI patients often slowly developed chronic illnesses with signs and symptoms similar to GWI, but only some time after the return home of veterans who developed GWI (8, 10, 11). That these civilian patients contracted their illnesses from chronically ill family members with GWI was a likely explanation (8) that was supported by the finding of similar chronic infections in these families (8, 11).


    Although chronic illnesses have been known in the medical literature for years, most patients with CFS/ME, FMS, GWI and in some cases RA have had few treatment options. This is probably due to the fact that the underlying causes of most chronic illnesses are unknown and treatments have been mainly palliative or supportive. Even if the causes or triggering events in chronic illnesses are not understood, these illnesses may show similarities in their progression; that is, they could have different initial causes or triggers but similar secondary events that result in progression (8, 11). We have proposed that the secondary event(s) could be opportunistic viral and/or bacterial infections that cause significant morbidity and illness progression (10-12). With time these secondary events may evolve or progress to be important or even dominant factor(s) in determining overall signs/symptoms and treatment strategies.

    Since indirect evidence suggests the infectious nature in at least certain subsets of chronic illness patients (8, 11, 12), we have been examining chronic illness patients for pathogens that could explain, at least in part, their complex signs and symptoms. One type of infection that could fulfill the criteria of association with a wide range of chronic illness signs and symptoms are certain microorganisms of the class Mollicutes (8, 11, 12). This is a class of small bacteria, lacking cell walls and genetics for lipid and other macromolecule synthesis pathways. It is primarily composed of Mycoplasmas, and although most species are nonpathogenic, some pathogenic Mycoplasma species are capable of invading several types of human cells and tissues and are associated with a wide variety of human diseases (11, 15-19).

    Are pathogenic Mycoplasma species and other intracellular bacteria (Chlamydia, Borrelia, etc.) associated with chronic illnesses such as CFS/ME, FMS, GWI and RA? We (6, 8, 11, 15, 17-19, 24) and others (20-23) have examined chronic illness patients for the presence of mycoplasmal blood infections and have found a strong association with the presence of chronic illnesses. In our studies the clinical diagnosis of these disorders was obtained from referring physicians according to the patients’ major signs and symptoms. Blood was collected, shipped over night at 4°C and processed immediately for Nucleoprotein Gene Tracking (NPGT) after isolation of blood leukocyte nuclei (17, 18) or Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR) after purification of blood leukocyte DNA using a Chelex procedure (6, 8, 15, 19). These procedures are very sensitive and specific and can detect down to a few copies of intracellular bacteria in a blood sample. The sensitivity and specificity of the methods were determined by examining serial dilutions of purified DNA of M. fermentans, M. pneumoniae, M. penetrans and M. hominis in blood samples. Amounts as low as 1-10 fg of purified microorganism DNA were routinely detectable. Using PCR the amplification with the appropriate primers produced the expected fragment size in all tested species, which was confirmed by hybridization with an inner probe or DNA sequencing to confirm the sequence of the PCR product.

    We used the NPGT and the PCR procedures to examine chronic illness patients for Mycoplasma species and Chlamydia species infections. For example, using NPGT to analyze the blood leukocytes of GWI patients we found that 91/200 (~45%) were positive for mycoplasmal infections. In contrast, in nondeployed, healthy adults the incidence of mycoplasmal infections was 4/62 (~6%) (17, 18). Similarly, others have more recently used PCR to examine GWI patients and found that 55% were positive for Mycoplasma species and 36% were found to have M. fermentans infections (23). The slight difference in percentage of positive patients is probably due to the differences in sensitivities of these two methods. Using PCR procedures 52-63% of CFS/ME and FMS patients (n~1,000) had mycoplasmal infections (6, 19-24), whereas only 6-15% of controls (n~450) tested positive.

    An important observation was that patients with chronic illnesses that test positive for mycoplasmal infections usually have multiple infections. When we examined mycoplasma-positive CFS/ME and FMS patients (~60% of such patients are usually mycoplasma-positive) for the presence of M. fermentans, M. pneumoniae, M. penetrans, M. hominis infections, multiple infections were found in the majority of approximately 100 patients (19). CFS/ME/FMS patients had two (>30%) or three (>20%) species of mycoplasmal infections, but only when one of the species was M. fermentans or M. pneumoniae (19). We also found higher score values for increases in the severity of signs and symptoms after onset of illness in CFS/ME/FMS patients with multiple infections. Also, CFS/FMS patients with multiple mycoplasmal infections generally had a longer history of illness, suggesting that patients may have contracted additional infections during their illness (19). Most of these patients also show evidence of various viral and Chlamydia species infections. Thus it is likely that most CFS/ME and FMS patients have multiple bacterial and viral infections.


    The causes of rheumatic diseases are for the most part unknown, but RA and other autoimmune diseases could be triggered or more likely exacerbated by infectious agents (25). In some animal species infection by certain Mycoplasma species can result in remarkable clinical and pathological similarities to RA and other rheumatic diseases. Aerobic and anaerobic intestinal bacteria, viruses and mycoplasmas have all been proposed as possible agents in the etiology of RA (25-30), and there has been increasing evidence that mycoplasmas may play a role in the initiation or more likely progression of RA (13, 15, 30-32). Mycoplasmas have been proposed to interact nonspecifically with B-lymphocytes, resulting in modulation of immunity, autoimmune reactions and promotion of rheumatic diseases (31), and mycoplasmas have been found in the joint tissues of patients with rheumatic diseases, suggesting their pathogenic involvement in these and other chronic illnesses (29).

    Using PCR Mycoplasma species are commonly found in RA patients’ blood. For example, when Haier et al. (15) and Vojdani and Franco (23) examined RA patients’ blood leukocytes for the presence of mycoplasmas, they found that approximately one-half were infected with various species of mycoplasmas. The most common species found was M. fermentans, followed by M. hominis, M. pneumoniae and finally M. penetrans (15, 23). Similar to what we reported in CFS/FMS patients (19), there was a high percentage of multiple mycoplasmal infections in RA patients when one of the species was M. fermentans (15).

    Mycoplasma species and other intracellular pathaogenic bacteria could be important factors or cofactors in the development of inflammatory responses in rheumatic diseases and for progression of RA. As an example of the possible role of Mycoplasma species in rheumatic diseases, M. arthritidis infections in animals can trigger and exacerbate autoimmune arthritis in animal models of RA (32, 33). M. arthritidis can also suppress immune cells and release substances that act on polymorphonuclear granulocytes, such as oxygen radicals, chemotactic factors and other substances (33). Mycoplasmal infections can increase pro-inflammatory cytokines, such as Interleukin-1, -2 and –6 (34), suggesting that they are involved in the development and possibly progression of rheumatic diseases such as RA. In addition, mycoplasmas have been detected in the synovial fluid of RA patients’ joints (29).

    A variety of microorganisms have been under investigation as cofactors or causative agents in rheumatic diseases (8, 15, 25, 26). The discovery of EB virus (27) and cytomegalovirus (28) in the cells of the synovial lining in RA patients suggested their involvement in RA, possibly as cofactors. There are a number of bacteria and viruses that are candidates in the induction or progression of RA (15, 25, 26). In support of a bacterial involvement in RA, antibiotics like minocycline can alleviate the clinical signs and symptoms of RA (Table 1) (35). This and similar drugs are likely suppressing infections of sensitive microorganisms like mycoplasmas, although certain antibiotics could also cause other effects in susceptible patients.


    Mycoplasmas have been associated with the progression of immunosuppressive diseases, such as HIV-AIDS (36). These infections have also been associated with certain lethal human diseases, such as an acute fatal illness found with M. fermentans infections in non-AIDS patients (37). Importantly, mycoplasmal infections are now thought to be a major source of morbidity in HIV-AIDS (38). Expanding further on this, Blanchard and Montagnier (38) have proposed that certain mycoplasmas like M. fermentans are important cofactors in the progression of HIV-AIDS, accelerating disease progression and accounting, in part, for the increased susceptibility of AIDS patients to increased viral replication and additional opportunistic infections. Since most studies on the incidence of mycoplasmal infections in HIV-AIDS patients have employed relatively insensitive tests, it is likely that the actual prevalence of mycoplasmal infections in HIV-AIDS patients is much greater than previously thought and may be associated with a rapid fatal course of the disease. For example, in HIV-AIDS mycoplasmas like M. fermentans can cause renal and CNS complications (39), and mycoplasmas have been found in various tissues, such as the respiratory epithelial cells of AIDS patients (40). Other species of mycoplasmas have been found in AIDS patients where they have also been associated with disease progression (41), and it is likely that several viral and bacterial infections are involved in the progression of this disease. In addition to immune suppression, some of this increased pathogenecity may be the result of mycoplasma-induced host cell membrane damage from toxic oxygenated products released from intracellular bacteria (42). Also, mycoplasmas may regulate HIV-1 virus replication. Interestingly, HIV-LTR-dependent gene expression can be regulated by the presence of certain pathogenic mycoplasmas (43).

    There is some preliminary evidence that mycoplasmal and other infections are associated with various autoimmune diseases. For example, in some mycoplasma-positive GWI cases some of the signs and symptoms of Multiple Sclerosis (MS), Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS), Lupus, Graves’ Disease and other complex autoimmune diseases have been seen. Such usually rare autoimmune responses are consistent with certain chronic infections, such as mycoplasmal infections, that penetrate into nerve cells, synovial cells and other cell types and probably stimulate autoimmune responses by their own or host antigens. Thus the autoimmune signs and symptoms in these patients could be the result of intracellular pathogens, such as mycoplasmas, escaping from cellular compartments and incorporating into their own structures pieces of host cell membranes that contain important host antigens that can trigger autoimmune responses. Alternatively, mycoplasma surface components, sometimes called ‘superantigens,’ may directly stimulate autoimmune responses (44). Perhaps the most important event, the molecular mimicry of host antigens by mycoplasma surface components, may explain, in part, their ability to stimulate autoimmune responses (45).

    Pulmonary infections are often seen in chronic illness patients. For example, asthma, airway inflammation, chronic pneumonia and other respiratory diseases are known to be associated with mycoplasmal infections (46). It has been noted that M. pneumoniae is a common cause of upper respiratory infections (47), and severe asthma is frequently associated with mycoplasmal and other infections (48). Chronic illness patients with respiratory signs and symptoms usually have bacterial infections.

    An emerging area of interest is the possible involvement of chronic infections in a variety of coronary conditions. Cardiopathies can be caused by chronic Mycoplasma species (49) and Chlamydia species (50) infections, resulting in myocarditis, endocarditis, pericarditis and other types of infections. These cardiac infections are often due to Mycoplasma species, Chlamydia species and possibly other intracellular bacteria and other infectious agents, and they are emerging agents in coronary diseases.

    Mycoplasmal infections are also associated with a variety of miscellaneous illnesses, such as M. hominis infections in patients with hypogamma-globulinemia (30), and M. genitalium infections in nongonococcal urethritis patients (51). Mycoplasmas can exist in the oral cavity and gut as normal flora, but when they penetrate into the blood and tissues, they may be able to cause or promote a variety of acute or chronic illnesses. These cell-penetrating species, such as M. penetrans, M. fermentans, M. hominis and M. pirum, among others, can cause infections that result in complex systemic signs and symptoms. Mycoplasmal infections can also cause synergism with other infectious agents. Similar types of chronic infections caused by cell-invasive Chlamydia, Brucella, Coxiella or Borriela species may also be present either as single agents or as complex, multiple infections in many chronic illnesses (8, 11).


    Once chronic intracellular bacterial infections, such as Mycoplasma species infections, have been identified in the blood of subsets of CFS/ME, FMS, GWI, RA and other chronic illness patients, they can be treated using conventional and alternative approaches. Appropriate treatment with antibiotics should result in patient improvement and even recovery, and this has been found in most but not all chronic illness patients (8, 11, 17, 18, 52-54) (Table 1). The recovery is usually slow and gradual after an initial period of Herxheimer and other adverse reactions that make patients temporarily more symptomatic. This period can last for several weeks. The recommended treatments for mycoplasmal blood infections are usually long-term antibiotic therapy, usually multiple 6-week cycles of doxycycline (200-300 mg/day), ciprofloxacin (1,500 mg/day), azithromycin (250-500 mg/day) or clarithromycin (750-1,000 mg/day), among others (53). Multiple 6-week cycles are required, because few patients recover after only a few cycles of antibiotics. This is probably due to the intracellular locations of mycoplasmas like M. fermentans and M. penetrans or other bacteria, such as Chlamydia species, the slow-growing nature of these infections, their inherent insensitivity to most antibiotics and the persistence of the infections in metabolically inactive forms. For most patients, treatment must be continuous for at least 6 months, followed by additional 6-week cycles of antibiotics, if necessary. Some treat these infections by administration of antibiotics every other day, and some recommend daily dosing. Due to poor gastrointestinal absorption in certain patients or the acuteness of signs and symptoms, intravenous therapy has been used for a few weeks, followed by oral antibiotics. Most patients cannot tolerate intravenous antibiotics for more than a few weeks or complications can then occur, so follow-on therapy with oral antibiotics is necessary.

    Can antibiotic therapy be successful in treating intracellular bacterial infections often found in chronic illness patients? Yes, but antibiotics should not be used solely or exclusively to treat intracellular bacterial infections. They have proven successful for many if not most patients; however, many patients eventually fail on antibiotic therapy alone. For example, of 87 GWI patients that tested positive for mycoplasmal infections, all patients relapsed after the first 6-week cycle of antibiotic therapy, but after up to 6 cycles of therapy 69/87 previously mycoplasma-positive patients recovered and returned to active duty (17, 18). Since few patients recovered within 6 months of antibiotic therapy, as discussed above, this is now the minimal recommendation of antibiotic treatment (54). These were relatively young patients (most <25 years of age) that were healthy before their illness, and this could have played a role in their higher response rates compared to civilians with chronic illnesses which tend to be on the average older and not as healthy. The clinical responses that were seen in patients were not due to placebo effects, because administration of some antibiotics, such as penicillins, resulted in patients becoming more not less symptomatic, and they were not due to immunosuppressive effects that can occur with some of the recommended antibiotics. Interestingly, CFS/ME, FMS and GWI patients that slowly recovered after several cycles of antibiotics were generally less environmentally sensitive, suggesting that their immune systems were slowly returning to pre-illness states. If such patients had illnesses that were caused by psychological or psychiatric problems or solely by chemical or viral exposures, they should not have responded to the recommended antibiotics and slowly recovered. In addition, if such treatments were just reducing autoimmune responses, then patients should have immediately relapsed after the treatments were discontinued and they should not have responded to antibiotics that do not suppress immune systems.

    Although the majority of GWI patients in these unblinded, initial studies responded to antibiotic therapy, the studies have been justifiably criticized for not being controlled, blinded clinical trials. In the case of GWI, large double-blinded, placebo-controlled studies have recently been initiated using doxycycline. In the case of RA, however, double-blinded, placebo-controlled antibiotic trials using minocycline have been successfully conducted. These trials show that the treatment of RA patients with minocycline is clinically effective and results in recovery of approximately one-half of an unselected group (not tested for chronic infections) of patients (Table 1) (35, 55). The reason for the incomplete responses among RA patients was probably due to the fact that only a portion of the patients under study probably had intracellular bacterial pathogens as their main clinical problem. Viruses and other pathogens may also play an important role in these patients, and minocycline would not be expected to have any effect on this type of infection.

    Another less conventional approach to the treatment of chronic illness patients with intracellular bacterial infections is oxygen therapy. Hyperbaric oxygen, intravenous ozone and hydrogen peroxide have been used to treat anaerobic infections similar to the infections discussed here. Most patients with anaerobic infections respond to such therapy with at least temporary alleviation of signs and symptoms, but additional evidence is needed before one can conclude that such therapy results in sustained suppression of anaerobic infections, such as those caused by Mycoplasma and Chlamydia species. Since these therapies are mainly cytostatic not cytotoxic, they must be sustained for some period of time. However, the use of long-term protocols that include oxygen therapy is likely to prove useful, and it is certainly beneficial in patients who cannot tolerate antibiotics due to chemical sensitivities or other reasons. In some patients, alternating antibiotic and oxygen therapies may be useful, but this has not been done in a controlled study.


    For the therapy of chronic illness patients to be successful we believe that a comprehensive approach involving conventional and alternative therapies must be undertaken with each patient. An important part of chronic illness treatment programs should be the use of certain dietary supplements, particularly to boost and maintain immune systems (Table 2). In addition to treatments like antibiotics and antivirals, oxygen therapy and removal of toxic agents from the patients’ systems, nutritional supplementation should also be undertaken, especially in those patients with environmental toxic exposures (56). Although for the most part these alternative medical approaches have not been carefully evaluated in blinded trials, practitioners that have used them strongly support their usefulness.

    Since chronic illness patients often have nutritional and other deficiencies, these should be corrected with the use of various supplements (Table 2) (53). For example, chronic illness patients are often depleted in vitamins B, C and E, among others, and certain minerals. Unfortunately, patients with chronic illnesses often have poor gastrointestinal absorption capacities. Therefore, relatively high doses of some vitamins must be used (vitamins C and E). Others, such as vitamin B complex, cannot be easily absorbed by the gastrointestinal systems of chronic illness patients, so sublingual or parentral natural B-complex vitamins (riboflavin, niacin, vitamin B-6, B-12 and pantothenic acid) should be substituted for oral preparations. General vitamins plus extra C, E, CoQ-10, beta-carotene, folic acid, bioflavoids and biotin are necessary. L- cysteine, L-tyrosine, L-glutamine, L-carnitine, malic acid and flaxseed or fish oils are reported by some to be useful. Certain minerals are also often depleted in these patients, such as zinc, magnesium, chromium and selenium, and these should be supplemented as well (Table 2) (56). One problem with providing supplements in a program that also uses antibiotics is that they cannot be taken at the same time of day as the antibiotics because they may inhibit antibiotic uptake or interfere with antibiotic transport. Another problem is the consumption of foods that can naturally suppress immune systems, such as processed sugar. We generally suggest that chronic illness patients undergoing therapy should make an effort to eliminate if possible sugar, alcohol, caffeine or other foods that may interfere with a patient’s immune system.

    There are also other important considerations in patients undergoing antibiotic or antiviral therapy (53). Antibiotics deplete normal gut bacteria, which can result in over-growth of less desirable bacteria. To supplement bacteria in the gastrointestinal system live cultures of Lactobacillus acidophillus in tablets, capsules or powder are recommended. One product is a mixture of Lactobacillus acidophillus, Lactobacillus bifidus and other bacteria with FOS (fructoologosaccharides) to promote growth in the gastrointestinal system. Various commercial formulations of probiotics are available to replenish gastrointestinal bacteria that have been killed or suppressed by antibiotic therapy.

    A number of natural remedies that boost the immune system can be useful in the therapy of chronic illnesses. Among these are whole lemon/olive extract drink or an extract of olive leaves with antioxidants, plant extracts or purified plant products or milk proteins, such as whey. These products are useful during or after antibiotic therapy has been completed. Although these products appear to help some patients, their clinical effectiveness in various chronic illness patients for the most part has not been carefully evaluated. An exception is a Chinese herbal formulation (Calm Colon; Samra) that has been tested for benefit in Irritable Bowel Syndrome. In a randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled clinical trial this formulation was found to be effective in reducing the symptoms of Irritable Bowel Syndrome (57). In some cases natural products are known to stimulate immune systems, as shown in various in vitro assays (58). They should be used by patients during therapy to boost immune systems and especially after antibiotic therapy in a maintenance program to prevent relapse of illness (53).

    Traditional herbal supplements have proven useful in the treatment of chronic illness patients (57, 58), especially in a maintenance program to prevent relapse of illness. African and Chinese natural immune enhancers and cleansers can help to restore natural immunity and aid absorption. This is an often overlooked but nonetheless important recommendation (Table 2). Unfortunately, it is difficult to recommend specific supplements as useful in all patients, but many patients that have undergone more traditional antibiotic and/or antiviral therapies often relapse after the therapy is completed without continued support with dietary supplements. Some of the recommended products in Table 2 have mild natural antibiotic, antiviral and antifungal properties, so they can be useful in certain patients. Although these natural products are known to help many chronic illness patients, their clinical effectiveness in GWI/CFS/FMS/RA patients has not been carefully evaluated.

    Another consideration is the elimination of drugs that might suppress immunity. We have recommended that patients be taken off antidepressants and other potentially immune-suppressing drugs. Some of these drugs are used to help alleviate certain signs and symptoms, but in our opinion they can interfere with therapy, and they should be gradually reduced or eliminated.


    We have proposed that chronic infections, especially multiple chronic bacterial and viral infections, are an appropriate explanation for much of the morbidity seen in rather large subsets of CFS/ME, FMS, GWI and RA patients, and in a variety of other chronic illnesses. Not every patient, however, will have this as a diagnostic explanation or have the same types of chronic infections. These infections need not be the triggering factor or cause of chronic illnesses and are probably more important in causing progression of disease. Nonetheless, chronic infections may cause most of the morbidity seen in these patients, and selective therapy of chronic infections supports this view. Additional research will be necessary to clarify the role of multiple infections in chronic diseases, but these patients should benefit from appropriate antibiotic, antiviral and nutraceutical therapies that alleviate morbidity. Additional controlled studies should be performed to determine the clinical effectiveness of alternative therapies and nutritional supplements in treating chronic illnesses.

  118. TO: Anonymous (the above poster who said their CFS may be due to Staphylococcus or Chlamydia pneumoniae).

    I have put up some information about completely CURING Staphylococcus-type CFS using arsenic salts here:


    This cure has only been designed to treat CFS that is caused by Staphylococcus, not viral CFS – although it possibly may help if you have viral CFS, but with a Staphylococcus co-infection. I guess arsenic salts may also work for CFS caused by other bacteria.

    Note that there is a possible cancer risk in using arsenic salts.

    I wonder if the reason that arsenic salts are effective in eradicating Staphylococcus arises from the high levels of oxidation arsenic creates within human cells (by inducing reactive oxygen species inside the cell). It has been shown recently that Staphylococcus can change into an intracellular form (a form that can live within human cells) as well as its normal extracellular form, so regular antibiotics may only kill the extracellular Staphylococci, but possibly not the intracellular Staphylococci (as many antibiotics do not penetrate well into cells). I am guessing that the reactive oxygen species induced inside human cells by arsenic salts may help destroy even the intracellular Staphylococci. Of course, it is these reactive oxygen species that also damage human DNA within the cells, an this is the likely reason for arsenic’s carcinogenic effects.

  119. Hip,

    i am not sure if there is something like “CFS caused by Staphylococcus” and “CFS caused by virus”. The reason is that someone with compromissed imunity will trade all of these bugs. Secondly, fact that CFS is caused by virus or bacteria that does not mean, that it may be cured bz removing this bacteria, or virus, since by the time many other bugs are involved, which compromise imunity in a similiar way.

  120. This link may illustrate previous…


    REPLY: Very interesting link: Candida albicans protecting Staphylococcus aureus from the immune system.

    I agree that in general, CFS is probably caused by a number of different pathogens in the body, all acting together, like the above Candida + Staphylococcus combination.

    However, there are often clearcut cases where the CFS is caused by one main pathogen, and when this main pathogen is treated, the CFS resolves. These are the treatable and curable cases of CFS.

    CFS cases associated with Chlamydia pneumoniae or Coxiella burnetii bacteria are treatable and curable. See here.

    For Staphylococcus-associated CFS, info on the arsenic cure is here.

    Virally-associated CFS can also be cured sometimes:

    With parvovirus B19-associated CFS, intravenous immunoglobulin can cure it: see here.

    Enterovirus-associated CFS can be put into complete remission for periods of over a year, using intravenous interferon: see here. However, experience has demonstrated that the enterovirus-associated CFS will return at some point. So at the moment, there is not a permanent cure for enterovirus-associated CFS.

    Epstein-Barr and herpes 6 associated CFS has been improved by antivirals like valganciclovir (though this is quite a toxic drug).

    – Hip

  121. Hip,

    but strange thing with CFS is low grade fever, around 37,5 C and there are some other typical symptoms as well (e.g. disregulation of hormones). If there was many different causes of CFS, we would expect symptoms to differ remarkably from person to person. But this is not so. There must be something common for all CFS cases and there is probably one main pathogen responsible.

    REPLY: I follow your thinking on this.

    One theory is that the retrovirus XMRV is the cause of CFS: that this virus weakens the immune system, and this then allows other viruses, bacteria, etc to proliferate, and cause the symptoms of CFS. So in this view, the real cause is XMRV. This is one idea about a single pathogen cause.

    However, another viewpoint is this: there are many physiological subsystems in the body: I suspect that CFS symptoms are caused when a particular physiological subsystem(s) is made dysfunctional. It does not matter what caused the dysfunction (a virus, bacterium, protozoan, or environmental toxin), all that matters is that a certain physiological subsystems has become dysfunctional, and the symptoms observed directly result from the dysfunction of that subsystem.

    For example, the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis (HPA axis) is a physiological subsystem that is thought to be malfunctioning in CFS: so many of the symptoms of CFS may come from the HPA axis dysfunction. Any infectious agent that causes the same sort of HPA dysfunction may therefore create exactly the same CFS symptoms.

    Another example: the immune system in CFS is often dysfunctional in a very particular way: it is usually stuck in the Th2 mode. So again the symptoms of CFS may arise directly from this very particular immune system dysfunction, and any virus, bacterium, or protozoan that is able to lock the immune system in Th2 mode may produce the same symptoms of CFS.

    – Hip

  122. Well gang, the results are in.

    I am positive for:

    Coxsackie B 1, 3 and 4

    echovirus 11

    chlamydia pneumoniae IgG

    hhv 6

    hsv 1


    So my presumption from the beginning turns out to be true: a viral stack threw me into CFS. The illness I got in 2007 that started this all was the straw that broke the camel’s back, likely one of the coxsackie virus infections.

    The doctor believes I’m doing better than most with this and we’re going to give 90 days of Equilibrant a shot as a first attempt. As Hip mentioned a few comments above, viral related CFS can be put into remission but the doctor said other patients have seen small short term exacerbation after a year of two, but in each case they were able to put it back into remission again. If the Equilibrant doesn’t help anything we’ll readdress the issue in June.

    REPLY: Very interesting results, E.

    You have a major hit on the enteroviruses: four of them. The enteroviruses most commonly associated with CFS are coxsackievirus B1 and coxsackievirus B4, and you have both. It could also be that you have the new virulent strain of coxsackievirus B1. This “killer coxsackievirus B1″ is still the best guess I have for the identity of the virus I caught, and whose symptoms are described on this blog.

    Were the above tests all antibody tests? If so, do you have the antibody titer figures in each case? It would interesting to see those. Was it the ARUP Labs that did these tests – the lab that Dr Chia has recommended, as being one of the few labs that can properly detect enterovirus? (ARUP’s enterovirus antibody tests are vailable here: CVB, EV).

    Given that you know your viruses now, the info I collected on herbal antivirals for enterovirus may be of some limited benefit:

    Anti-coxsackievirus B1 supplements: ursolic acid (from basil essential oil), black soybean extract, Bupleurum kaoi.

    Anti-coxsackievirus B3 supplements: curcumin, Rhodiola rosea, Ardisia chinensis.

    Anti-coxsackievirus B4 supplements: DHEA.

    (This info is found on the main page above on this blog).

    – Hip

  123. @ Hip

    Yes I have the titer figures. A few of the numbers indicated that they were likely previous infections since they were low, but specifically the coxsackie B 4 and hhv6 were high, indicating a current infection. I will post those numbers tonight. I forgot the lab paperwork on my way into work this morning. I saw Dr Chia, and went to the lab they told me to go to, so I presume it would be one that he approves of.

    REPLY: Very interesting, E.

    From the Enterovirus Foundation website (which Dr Chia is working with), they specify using the enterovirus micro-neutralization test. Titers of 1:320 and higher are good indicators of current infection.

    Apart from oxymatrine, have you been given any specific drugs/supplements to combat HHV-6 and CVB4?

    You know that Dr Cheney recommends artemisinin / arsenate for HHV-6.

    Here is some info (see paragraph “DHEA and Immune Function”) on the immune-boosting effects of the dietary supplement DHEA against CVB4. There is a related supplement called androstenediol (used by bodybuilders) which offers an amazing 10,000 times more efficacy against CVB4 than DHEA offers, but unfortunately androstenediol was banned a few years back.

    Interestingly, DHEA seems to boost the immune functioning in the skin, which may be very be helpful.

    I have tried DHEA, but I find that oral doses of more than around 30 mg per day generate an angry mood, which I don’t like (although angry is sometimes better than depressed!).

    I wonder if androstenediol is available in China?

    – Hip

  124. Hip,

    the inefectivenes of hydrogen peroxide therapy may be another indication to Staph. aureus infection. The reason is that it posseses some antioxidant (staphyloxantin) that makes it look like gold but gives it resistance to reactive oxidants as well. It is probably something like carotene.

    REPLY: Perhaps bacteriophage therapy will destroy a Staphylococcus infection (bacteriophage therapy = using bacterial viruses to infect and kill bacteria). The only place I know in the world now that does bacteriophage therapy is the Phage Therapy Center, Republic of Georgia, in the Former Soviet Union.

    – Hip

  125. @ Hip

    Here’s the titer figures:

    Coxsackie B Types

    reference interval is < 1:10

    B1 – result – positive: 1:40

    B2 – result – negative: 1:10

    B3 – result – positive: 1:20

    B4 – result – positive: 1:160

    B5 – result – negative: < 1:10

    B6 – result – negative: < 1:10


    reference interval is < 1:40

    echovirus 11 result – positive: 1:80

    HHV-6 IgG

    reference interval is:

    negative – 0.9

    equivocal – 0.90 – 1.10

    result – positive: 2.16

    Chlamydia pneumoniae

    IgG: reference interval is < 1:16

    result – positive: > 1:256

    IgM: reference interval is < 1:10

    result – negative: < 1:10

    CMV was negative by the way.

  126. IF yo get a blood test would it show if their were bacteria on the inside of your cells as opposed to the outside? Also I I’m going to the doctor again and I’m gonna find out exactly what they have and have not been tested for. I was wondering HIP if you had any advise on things to tell my doctor to try and test me for? I am also going to see a gastrologist And was wondering if they are the type of dotter to do the protein test of the stomach?

  127. @ fernando,

    recomend you to do along with another test two this one:

    1.Proteinogram\Plasma protein fractions (albuminy; α1-globulin, α2-globulin, β-globulin, γ-globulin)

    2.Plasma Hemostasis\plasma coagulation test (at least: prothrombin time -PT; Activated parital thromboplastin time; TT\PT; Fibrinogen)

    REPLY: Kozak, can you provide some explanation for your reasoning, and what these tests might discover. Thanks

    – Hip

  128. @ Fernando

    If your experience is anything like mine, I recommend trying to see an infectious disease specialist who focuses on chronic fatigue, or at the least believes in it. I saw several different doctors, three of which were GI’s, and none of them did a thing for me but drain my wallet. I am finally making some progress with the ID specialist I am seeing now. See my posts above for the results of my recent visit.

  129. @ Hip

    In regards to other treatments besides the Oxymatrine, none yet. I am a little curious about that but I’ll wait it out until my next visit when we look at the blood work again. I am taking valacyclovir also, which I think might be believed to have some efficacy against hhv6.

  130. TO: Fernando

    Yes, I go along with what E says above: find an infectious disease specialist who focuses on chronic fatigue syndrome.

    You want to get a set of tests. When you start speaking to different people with CFS, you often find that they have more than one infection. Each has their own unique group of microbes.

    For example, E’s tests above are typical of this: E is positive for four enteroviruses (CVB1, CVB3, CVB4, and echovirus), plus HHV-6, plus Chlamydia pneumoniae.

    Now, out of these, the microbes that have been statistically associated with chronic fatigue syndrome are: CVB1, CVB4, HHV-6 and Chlamydia pneumoniae.

    It is hard to tell which is causing the most symptoms; they probably all contribute to the overall symptoms of CFS.

    But once you know what pathogens you have, you can start taking the right drugs/supplements that target your CFS pathogens. Some pathogens are more treatable than others. For example, Chlamydia pneumoniae is treatable; HHV-6 is treatable to a degree; enteroviruses are harder to treat.

    The fact that you had this heart attack from a heart sac infection (pericarditis) 3 years ago, and then went on to get CFS symptoms does suggest that you might have picked up a coxsackievirus B infection, as coxsackievirus B is a very common cause of pericarditis, and is also very commonly linked to CFS.

    Coxsackie B viruses are very prevalent viruses, by the way, around 55% of the adult population have one or more in their bodies.

    Anyway, an infectious disease specialist who focuses on chronic fatigue syndrome is what you want (and not just any infectious disease specialist; they must know and understand about CFS).

    If you want to do it on your own, and want to get the tests done yourself, then here are the most common CFS pathogens that you may want to test for:

    Viruses statistically associated with chronic fatigue syndrome include: enteroviruses (typically coxsackievirus B1 and B4), HHV-6, parvovirus B19, Epstein-Barr virus, XMRV, cytomegalovirus, HHV-7.

    Bacteria statistically associated with chronic fatigue syndrome include: Chlamydia pneumoniae, Coxiella burnetii, Brucella.

    (The ones in bold are fairly essential; the others are optional)

    These can be tested for at any good pathology lab (except enteroviruses, which it seems only labs like ARUP (see above) can test for accurately).

    Gut bacterial infections like Staphylococcus may contribute to CFS symptoms; you may want to get a stool analysis from Genova Diagnostics to check out your gut flora.

    As for intracellular and extracellular bacteria: this depends on the species. Chlamydia pneumoniae are predominantly intracellular; Staphylococcus predominantly extracellular.

  131. concerning:

    **Chlamydia pneumoniae are predominantly intracellular**

    I read last night that antibiotics have no effect on Chlamydia pneumoniae because they are not actually live cells during the propagation phase of their life cycle, thus making it difficult to eradicate.

    REPLY: That is interesting. I just found this:

    “Chlamydia pneumoniae undergoes three distinct phases in its life cycle. In its early, spore-like elementary bodies stage, chlamydia pneumoniae can spread throughout the body via the bloodstream. Once a spore penetrates a cell it enters the reticulate bodies stage, which is the organism’s active stage. At this stage the organism uses the cell’s energy to reproduce more elementary bodies. The organism will enter into a hibernation phase call the cryptic stage until conditions are right to kill the host cell and release the elementary bodies into the bloodstream.”

    Source http://www.ehow.com/about_5449977_treatment-chlamydia-pneumoniae.html

    – Hip

  132. Iam a sore throat victim. I very eagerly read the article. unfortunately I couldnt understand a score of term used.

    any how thanks a lot. God bless all who contributed to this research.

    REPLY: Hi Anwar.

    Your Internet address indicates you are from Pakistan. If you speak Urdu, you could try translating the text of this website into Urdu using Google translate:


    – Hip

  133. Maybe this is too early, but I gotta say, after only three days on Equilibrant I am feeling uncommonly solid. Its hard to explain but something is different. My head feels more clear than its been in so long and I just feel sorta energized. I was told I would get worse before better but so far I feel great, rather instantly. I hope this continues!

    REPLY: It’s very nice to hear, E.

    I can’t remember if you were one of the people that tried oxymatrine before? I tried oxymatrine tablets (but not Chia’s Equilibrant oxymatrine), and did not sense benefit at the time. But that was a few years back, when I had super-high inflammation; now that I know which supplements to take to fight off the inflammation, it might be worth me trying oxymatrine again.

    Equilibrant ingredients: 1500mg blend of astragalus, sophora root extract (= oxymatrine), olive leaf extract, licorice root, shiitake mushroom; plus vitamin A 2000 iu, Calcium 600 mg, Selenium 30 mg

    Most of these listed herbs shift the immune system equilibrium from the Th2-mode, into the Th1-mode. It is in this Th1-mode that you can get a nice increase in viral clearance.

    – Hip

  134. @ Hip

    It should be noted that stopping Oxymatrine too quickly can throw you violently into even worse CFS than before you started taking it. It should be gradually introduced and once tolerated, the dose should be gradually increased if tolerance continues, according to what I was told by Dr. Chia.

    REPLY: OK, point noted. I think I remember this point from one of the Chia CFS conference videos I watched. It is interesting that oxymatrine must be kept going constantly, since other immunomodulators like Immunovir are said to be best taken on and off (Dr Cheney).

    – Hip

  135. Hi E, I have been taking Equilibrant for about 1.5 years. Now just one per day. What was Dr. Chia’s recommendation to you? Thanks.

  136. Ok I have a quick question. In general what effect does beer and wine have on virus sufferers mentioned in this site? I generally have refrained from both but wondering what others have experienced.

  137. @ T

    Alcohol is terrible for my symptoms. If I drink I will experience an almost immediate increase in symptoms. I have not had more than a glass or two of wine on maybe 2 or 3 occasions spanning the last three years. Also, having smoked pot for most of my life until recently, and thus having the ability to compare its effects during both healthy and unhealthy stages of my life, I am of the opinion that it is also very bad for CFS. I believe from my own experience, and contrary to some arguments, that it lowers immunity, causes inflammation, contributes to skin problems – especially hsv, and greatly enhances the symptoms of anxiety and the perception of discomfort and pain throughout the body. I have come to realize that the only real medical benefit pot has is to create an appetite.

  138. @ Bastante

    Dr. Chia would like to see me increase the dosage slowly. After two weeks, If I am tolerating it, I am to increase my intake to two pills daily, and then some months later I believe another increase, but at this point I’m not sure when that is supposed to be or how much. After a few weeks on two a day I’ll prob call him and clarify the next steps. I am of the understanding that more than one pill a day is needed for true benefits to be seen.

  139. @ Hip

    To be honest be seemed dismissive about it. He spent a lot of time telling me all about his theories and personally I think, less time listening to my specific symptoms. I got the idea that maybe, though I’m still wondering about this, he just expected there to be all kinds of different symptoms associated with enterovirus infection and therefor did not care to pay attention to any one specific thing. I will be directly asking him on the next visit why the 5 symptoms that this illness seems to share with the FOA virus is not of any concern to him, and furthermore why skin wrinkling is not really a listed symptom of CFS anywhere that I can see. I just decided to wait until one round of treatment before pursuing any other points.

    REPLY: It is probably a good idea to leave these questions to last, and focus more on your treatment.

    And when pursing these points with him, remember that Dr Chia himself cannot do much about the general lack of interest in research into enteroviral CFS, apart from just carrying on with his excellent and dedicated research, and hoping that the wider scientific community will begin to take more notice of nasty enteroviruses (especially the organizations that determine who gets the funding in science). I am sure Chia also wishes that enteroviruses could have a much larger research budget. Dr Chia is a member of the Enterovirus Foundation, whose function is to bring more awareness of enteroviruses and their associated diseases.

    The published work of Dr Chia has found strong association between persistent enterovirus infection in the body tissues of CFS patients, but association does not prove causality. But this more recent study from John Chia et al aims at demonstrating the casual connection: it documents the onset of CFS following acute enterovirus infection in a number of studied patients (Chia’s research followed up patients admitted to hospital with acute enterovirus infection, to see how many would then go on to get CFS afterwards).

    Personally, I think that study is groundbreaking: it is the first scientific demonstration of a causal connection (of sorts) between enterovirus and CFS.

    By contrast, there are as yet no studies showing that catching XMRV leads to CFS (although hopefully these will be forthcoming in future).

    (Caveat: in this study by Chia et al, the patient cohort was selected by the fact they had all caught an acute enterovirus infection, so they are not a purely random selection, as is required for a formal proof of causality).

    – Hip

  140. @ Hip

    Just to clarify, I am not chagrined about any point concerning my visit to Dr. Chia. He’s a busy Dr. with a lot on his mind and many under his care, and I am only one patient. I wanted to know his opinion on a great many things, but its is not practical to take too much of his time beyond the necessary topics we discussed. I realize this and as such decided to take up further inquiries on future visits. I am very hopeful that the next visit with him will see me feeling much better, and perhaps with any luck, some of those questions I have will be rendered unnecessary!

    REPLY: I agree. I think your approach is absolutely right.

    – Hip

  141. Still dying here even worse then before

    REPLY: Hi Floridafam, nice to hear from you. What symptoms have become worse – or is it just everything?

    – Hip

  142. just out of curiosity where is dr Chia located ?

    REPLY: Torrance, California.

    All the “superstar” CFS doctors are listed on the Treatments Page, though Dr Chia is the probably the best for enterovirus-associated CFS, as that is his area of deep expertise.

    – Hip

  143. @ Floridafam

    Sorry you’re feeling bad.

    You gotta try Larix man! I’m telling you it has made more of a difference with me than anything I’ve taken so far.

    this is the brand I have been taking:


    I am taking 3 pills a day. Please try it!! Not only because I think it will help you but also because I’d like to see if it can be of benefit to us here and I need someone else to experience the same results I did for confirmation.

  144. There is a good article on the Larix ingredient here:


    It is probably cheaper to buy the powder and throw it in a drink. I add a lot of supplemental herbs to my spirulina powder from which I make my breakfast smoothie which also contains rejuvalac, a home brewed probiotic made from fermented, sprouted grain (to which I also add some probiotic powder in the fermentation process to increase the diversity of good bugs). Since the arabinogalactan (ingredient in Larix) supports the growth of probiotics it makes sense to throw one of their favorite foods in with them.

  145. Well the backlash from the meds that Dr. Chia had mentioned seems to be occurring now. I have rarely had fatigue once the first year or so had passed, but its now become pretty bad again, much like it was when I had just gotten this illness. I also have had a noticeable increase in skin wrinkling as of this morning, and the red rash is back on my upper mustache area again. Sores on my head again too. The only thing that is improving and constant is my bowel motility.

    More updates as they come. From what I understand I can probably expect a week or two of this before any improvement. As an interesting side note to the symptoms worsening, I have been out of Larix for the last week. I have some on order but it wont be here for a few more days.

  146. @ unk

    Nice to hear from you again. Glad to see you moved on from the HIV/AIDS theory.

    Did you see my test results above? I believe those results are probably what many or most of us will find if the right tests are taken. AND YOU SHOULD TRY LARIX!!!!!!!

    see my posts above about it.

  147. @ Hip

    Wanna give the larix I’m on a shot? 3 pills a day? I think it should be added to the supplements page but I want to see someone else benefit from it before I can be sure its really as good as it seems.

    REPLY: I have tried the Swanson brand, which has the same 500 mg arabinogalactan of per capsule as found in the Larix brand you have. Swanson was cheaper than Larix. I am hoping that the quality of arabinogalactan is similar. Arabinogalactan is a polysaccharide (= a chain of sugar molecules) that has immune-boosting properties, as well as being an excellent prebiotic.

    How many days does it take on Larix before you notice improvements?

    I tried 6 x 500 mg tablets of Swanson arabinogalactan per day for a while, and even 12 tablets on one occasion, but I have not noticed much. However, I must admit that my declining brain is becoming less observant, so sometimes it is hard for me to notice symptom improvements now.

    Are taking other prebiotics? Have you experimented with prebiotics? Perhaps it is the prebiotic side of arabinogalactan that is helping you?

    I am taking a lot of prebiotics anyway, so taking extra arabinogalactan may not be necessary for me.

    – Hip

  148. well its been a while so id figure id fill u all in i had a t cell count done was at the 800 mark which is good and ive been sick for 3 years now so i was told theres now way this is aids also a hemoglobin count which was 1100 which is also go they but me on a cocktail of antidepressents which help with the cardio symptoms and some pain but im still alive and just plan to live for as long as i can and do as much as i can no matterwhat i look like or how much i hurt lifes short just got to make the best of it. for everyone that has the chronic pain im right there with you and it sucks that they wont do anything and we even look sick lol iv givn up on docters ive been to the best and they ignore me so all i can say is i tried one thing though im 100 percent sure that this is an infectious disease what exactly it is i dont no so ill never live it down when they tell me its mental i no its not some of it is but certainly not all of it

    REPLY: It is definitely an infectious disease as you know. Unfortunately it is hard to find a doctor that understands that mental symptoms in the mind are caused by infections the body. Infections in the gut and intestines actually have a very powerful effect on the brain, even though the brain is two or three feet away.

    A number of people here now have seen a BIG improvement in their mental symptoms by following the the two anti-inflammatory treatments here.

    – Hip

  149. @ HIP:

    > Kozak, can you provide some explanation for your

    > reasoning, and what these tests might discover. Thanks

    “1.Proteinogram\Plasma protein fractions” – mode of immunne responce + discovery general body condition(presence of possible exhaustion etc).

    “2.Plasma Hemostasis\plasma coagulation test” – disease stage and presence\absence of CHRONIC disseminated intravascular coagulation syndrome (cronic DIC) and it’s mode.

  150. @ Peter

    I don’t know your location or if you can find someone who is a practitioner of Nutri-energetics, but it turned my life around. This virus or whatever it is took me down despite my healthy lifestyle and I was hopeless against it till a friend urged me to try this very unconventional treatment. I still have the virus as I have some of the symptoms, but I actually have felt better since using the Nutri-energetics system than I did before I got sick. Don’t give up. http://www.nutrienergetics.com/v1/index.html

  151. Has anyone heard if they resolved the contamination argument with the XMRV testing done by the WPI?

    REPLY: A more important question: why is it only the best, world-class labs and scientists seem to be able to detect this virus?

    – Hip

  152. Just to be clear…I agree with you completely. I do not side with those that think the results were due to contamination. I just had not heard if they were able to put that argument to bed yet. I have checked the WPI website and can not find any recent news. I was hoping they were able to do more testing or studies to show that the contamination argument was stupid. I am placing a lot of stock / hope in this XMRV / MLV research.

    REPLY: I think the people involved in XMRV and MLV are too talented to have made a mistake like contamination. All the data suggests this virus is real.

    – Hip

  153. Thank you very much for this website. Its very informative, and quite an eye opener!

    I live in Canada, and am 31 years old. (I will provide my story on another post, later)


    I have a question (that might seem irrelevant) which maybe somebody could answer?

    I am a resident of Canada, and (approximately) in 1996, free Clinics and doctors were providing a vaccine against some form of Hepatitis? The vaccine was administered with 4 or 5 doses, within intervals of about 4 months each.

    Would anybody know exactly what this vaccine was for? Against what type of Hepatitis?

    Sending love and courage to you all,


  154. Hip,

    there are more more reasons to think that CFS is not caused by a virus rather than bacteria. I think an iron plays a very important role in most symproms. Bowel irritatin (leaky gut), and as well vein consrictions and irregularities support this theory. My previous blood test have often shown higher bilirubin levels also (not hemochromatosis). This may be typical for many CFS sufferers. Staphylococcus hemolysis or chlamydial porphyria may probably explain more aspects of this symptom. Despite the previous comments i wrote chlamydia (pneumo) is equaly if not even more logic explanation of CFS patogenesis. The reason is simple. Staphylococcus is very “strong” bacterium and would produce potentially very serious condition in a short time (and that is not reported in CFS cases). Thus chlamydia and iron irregularities is even more favorable explanation. SOme iron chelation therapy may be very recommended for CFS treatment.

    REPLY: Have you been checked for hepatitis? Hepatitis can result in high bilirubin.

    If you spend many years communicating with people that have CFS, and look closely at each case history, and each individual’s pathogen profile, it becomes apparent that:

    (a) there are many viral, bacterial, and even protozoal pathogens that can cause CFS (we know this from research anyway);

    (b) an individual will probably only descend into CFS when they have more than one of these CFS-associated pathogens in their body.

    There are very likely multiple causes of CFS.

    Chlamydia pneumoniae and Staphylococcus, Coxsackie B viruses, echoviruses, herpes 6 virus, herpes 7 virus, Epstein-Barr virus, parvovirus, cytomegalovirus are all linked to CFS.

    Remember: this website is not just about CFS in general; it is also focused on this particular virus that has caused all the symptoms listed on this site, including: hearts attacks, aseptic myocarditis, aseptic pericarditis, aseptic meningitis, fine skin wrinkles, extreme anxiety.

    – Hip

  155. Name: Kitty Kat

    Birth year: 1981 / Age 31

    Sex: Female

    Location: Ontario, Canada

    Family status: youngest sibling of 5 (2 brothers, 2 sisters)

    Age 0-9 >> unknown of any particular health concerns; however, many unfortunate accidents throughout my youth would bring me to consult doctors often (a severed tongue, falling down stairs, animal attack, bee stings, skin burning, metal poisoning)

    Age 10 >> Streptococcus diagnosed and treated with meds

    > Often sick with a cold-type virus (runny nose, ear aches, and sore throats)

    > Depression; suicidal thoughts; preferred seclusion from others

    > Behavioral problems (anger, violence, dark thoughts)

    Age 13> Began drinking coffee (to wake me up in the morning)

    Age 13>Severe fatigue in the morning; I would refuse to get up! Dizziness, nausea, with joint and muscle pain everywhere. My parents assumed they “thought I was being lazy, faking to be sick to try and remain at home from school”.

    > Began to notice dark circles around my eyes (which was left un-treated)

    > Torn ligament in the knee (after play fighting with a friend)

    > Several ankle sprains (stupid, random moments; by simply walking!)

    > Severe blinding headaches (sudden horrible pain in the temples, lasting anywhere from 5 seconds, to a few minutes; then disappearing) A MRI brain scan was done, and nothing was found. The doctor told me I probably “grind my teeth when I sleep”

    >Dentist notices a wearing down of my teeth. Consulted to wear a night guard, but I did NOT want to do this. But otherwise, perfect oral hygiene (never any cavities!)

    Age 14-16

    > Gingivitis (would spit out large amounts of blood)

    > Sudden onset of G.A.D. (I remember the exact moment it happened!!)

    > Further seclusion from friends and family

    > Trembling of the hands, and back (area)

    > Depressive thoughts worsening

    > Temporary hearing loss >> I awoke one morning, and could no longer hear anything; except a ringing noise in my ears. I went to the clinic, and the doctor removed large amounts of wax that had built up in my ears. I cried so much from the pain! The ringing was 10 times worse, after wards. This lasted about 4 days, and eventually left.

    > Anxiety and nervousness (generally “jumpy” to all my surroundings)

    Age 16

    >I was vaccinated for an “anti-hepatitis” thing? There were 4 vaccinations, with intervals of 4 months each. Ooops! My doctor vaccinated me a 5th time, and apologized to me, later. (WTF!!?) She told me not to worry, and that it wouldn’t “cause any problems??” To this day, I am still uncertain what these vaccines were??

    Yet, I now wonder, if this may have caused my condition at age 22?

    Age 17-18

    >Unable to digest certain foods (vomiting, dizziness, nausea)

    >Severe Allergic reaction to an unknown consumed product (hives, itchy red eyes, coughing, trembling, vomiting, chest pains, lips swollen, and finally, throat closed and could no longer breath >> was brought to the Hospital emergency room, and fainted on arrival. I was told by the doctor that, a few minutes later, I would have died.

    >Was prescribed the Epi-pen shot, since the cause was unknown

    >Alcohol was ingested in minimal quantities (vomiting easily, confusion)

    >Upset stomach (always rumbling, always hungry, or nauseous) >> I associated this to my general nervousness, thus, left it un-checked)

    Age 19

    >Developed asthma: my doctor said my 3 cats were the root cause>> advised me to get rid of them, and prescribed me a Corticosteroid inhalation pump. Progressively, my asthma symptoms got worse, so I threw out the inhaler altogether.

    > Sudden eczema on hands and feet >> treated with prescription cream

    > Breast fibroadenoma (removal of one 2-cm lump with surgery) and was prescribed Tylenol 3 for the pain in recovery; which lasted almost 6 months! The pain I experienced during my recovery would make me vomit, and feel nauseous. The scar took very long to heal

    >Sudden onset of 5 dental cavities within 1 year (never had any before)

    Age 21-24

    >Often ill (about 4 times a year) with cold-type symptoms. I associated this with the fact that I work daily with 400 people, or so. Germs spread quickly, especially with keyboards, and alternating PC work stations.

    >Severe sore throat and loss of voice (my doctor told me it was because I worked with my voice, on the telephone; that I would “always have problems with my throat” due to this)

    >Tendinitis in my right wrist (job related issue; working with PC’s) >> prescribed anti-inflammatory meds at least 3 times, until the doctor said I was no longer allowed to have them (side effects)

    >Regurgitation of food in my mouth; severe abdominal pains, which the doctor quickly diagnosed me with Irritable Bowel syndrome (cannot remember the meds given to me at the time)

    >Traumatic violent issue in the family: which left me and my family all severely depressed (I do not want to provide details). I was prescribed Ativans and Star-Noc (sleeping medication) because of panic attacks and sleeplessness.

    >Was on short term medical leave (from work) due to depression (5 months)

    >Severe headaches had returned (squeezing on both temples, blinding pains, causing me to vomit from pain)

    >During my panic attacks, I would lie in bed, and felt like “someone was sitting on my whole body, holding me down”. I couldn’t move an inch….only my eyes, slightly.

    >Began to vomit often, after meals

    >Sudden weight loss (from 110 pounds to 92 pounds within a few weeks)

    >No appetite, unable to digest most foods (vomiting, difficulty swallowing)

    >Within a month, I passed out from malnutrition. I was brought to the hospital. During my blood-work, the stupid nurse attempted 14 times to obtain blood!! She kept missing my veins, and I was left in horrible pain and bruising all on my arms, and hands; remained on overnight stay in the ICU, with other elderly dying patients. It was horrible!! Someone died, close to me. Another was shitting themselves…dear lord I wanted to get out of there!! I didn’t sleep the whole night, and was not allowed food or drink.


    I was asked by the doctor if I had attempted suicide? When I told him no, he didn’t seem to believe me, and questioned the medication I had been prescribed. He said, my liver was “the size of a football”, and told me to halt all forms of medication here on forth. I was sent for more in depth blood work, at another clinic.

    > Until my blood work would return, my doctor denied my request of anti-depressants, even though I advised her of my suicidal thoughts

    > I was diagnosed with liver autoimmune chronic hepatitis (AIH) of an unknown type (1 or2?) Only found recently (with the internet) that there are 2 types!!

    >Was prescribed Imuran (azathioprine), corticosteroids “steroids” AKA prednisone, calcium & vitamin D supplements, and Nexxium for heart-burn (approximately 14 pills a day) this was honestly one of the worst moments of my life. I gained 40 pounds in 2 weeks; due to water and salt retention, and thus began having issues with my lower back. I also developed sore skin, and itchy hives due to the sun’s exposure (fucking doctors didn’t tell me to stay out of the sun!!) Overall cushing syndrome – exogenous. I seriously wanted to die…..

    >Routine weekly blood tests for monitoring

    >11 months later, I would slowly start diminishing my prednisone meds

    >Prescribed a blood work every 6 months to confirm liver function was normal

    Note: I’d asked my doctor what causes AIH, and the answer was “unknown”. He said I was pre-disposed to it, genetically. Based on my liver scarring, he said I began AIH at approximately age 13. My symptoms back then would include fatigue, irritability, sunken dark circles around the eyes, and difficulty digesting certain foods, and being a light sleeper, resulting in not feeling rested in the mornings. Strangely enough, no one else in my family has AIH, or any other form of autoimmune disorder.

    Age 25-29

    >Bouts of low and high blood pressure at certain intervals.

    >Cannot bend down without feeling dizzy, afterwards

    >Can no longer digest tomato sauce or other new foods (severe heart burn)

    >Hated doctors, and hated the imposed routine blood work. I stopped consulting for this. Even if I would be diagnosed again, I NEVER wanted to take the medication again. I would rather die than have to the treatment again

    >Stopped my anti-contraceptive pills, wanting pregnancy.

    >Menstrual bleeding 2 weeks out of each month, for almost a year

    >1 noted seizure. I flipped like a pancake, as I lay in my bed. Hit my head and lip on the night table, hurt my leg.

    >Developed arthritis in hands. Fingers are now crooked, and painful!

    >Hands and feet are always deathly cold. I’m always shaking from the cold, when others around me are just plain normal temperature. Yet, in the summer heat, I have difficulty breathing in hot

    >Severe schizophrenic-type symptoms (paranoia, GAD, voice in my head)

    >All forms of physical noise would be intrusive. I developed a very strange hearing capability (certain noises others couldn’t hear, yet proved to be “real” noises; simply further from normal hearing spectrum; or form of bells or whistles are agonizingly loud!) Example: a person speaking from across the room, I could hear what they were saying….yet others couldn’t?? I began to “hear” electro-magnetic frequencies (EMF hot-spots). They generally make me feel nauseous, dizzy, and I begin seeing dark spots in my vision.

    >Laugh all you want, but I have successfully “felt” 4 earthquakes even before they occur. The changes in the earth’s tectonic plates are distinctly heard and felt; even thousands of miles away from where they occur. I felt he earthquake in Haiti moments before it occurred, and only read about it in the newspapers the following day. Maybe I’m crazy, or maybe I’m too sensitive to my surroundings?

    Age 30- Present day (2011)

    >Skin wrinkles appearing pretty much everywhere on my body. I had associated this simply to age, yet, cannot help but notice it’s only occurred within the last year or so.

    >Allergies (I thought, was because of my cat) since the end of 2010. Around once a week, I suddenly begin sneezing a lot, then runny nose, sore throat, difficulty swallowing. Allergy medication does NO affect at all. The only way to get rid of this, is if I take a cold-medication (Tylenol cold and flu) Right away, symptoms disappear, then re-start a week later???

    >Severe shoulder and back pain, joint stiffness, cracking jaw, constant general muscle aches, loss of balance at odd moments during the day (while standing up)

    >Moments of sudden memory loss (Brain farts, as I call them) LOL I can’t seem to remember my work schedule, or that I had to do something important! It feels like pre-Alzheimer’s LOL

    >Severe kidney infection (treated with anti-biotics) I suspect this was partially due to alcohol consumption during the holiday season of 2010. Normally, I do not drink alcohol due to my liver problems in the past. When the doctor asked about my medical history, I advised him about the AIH. He asked “so, did they ever find the reason you had AIH?” I told him no. And, he didn’t seem to care, any-fucking-how!

    >Regular symptoms include: Sore throat, dizziness, nausea, a constant trembling of the body within the nervous system; stomach pains (abdominal, liver, kidneys) neck stiffness for over 3 weeks now, bluish color in hands, very cold hands, fatigue, irritability, difficulty sleeping (due to pain in shoulder and neck), migraine headaches (minimum once a week), toothaches, bleeding gums, low fever, low dry cough, difficulty swallowing (sore throat) and pain in upper chest area after swallowing, or even breathing sometimes hurts! loss of voice; sudden burning/stinging of the eye; pink eye; pain inside the nose (like a dry, cracking feeling).

    >Irregular symptom: Ear bleeding. This occurred when I was taking anti-biotics for the kidney infection….so I thought nothing of it. I felt something weird inside my ear, and when I put a Kleenex on the outer extremity, there was blood. It seems I have a strange mole or something??? It hurt like hell! It has since then, healed.

    >Diarrhea. This is not constantly a symptom; less than once a week.

    >Dry heaves after certain meals

    >Red mole-type psoriasis on my scalp (everywhere!) They are dry, and funky looking. Actually, I have had this symptom since 2003, but my doc just said not to worry, that I had psoriasis of the scalp. But recently, this seems to be getting worse.

    >Monday (Feb 21st) Slight fever, fatigue, excessive sore throat, loss of voice, slight nasal symptoms; funny taste in my mouth (like blood) / white fur tongue, excessively cold; colder than usual >>> taking 2 or 3 baths a day just to keep me warm.

    >Feb 27th Today, my inner ear-ache has worsened. My left ear is completely blocked and is “ringing”, and it feels as though there is fluid build up inside. My migraine is NOT getting any better. I have been taking Advil since Monday, and now think I must go (again) to the hospital. I HATE DOCTORS!!! Sorry…. 

    If interested, I will keep updates on any results. In the meantime, I will read the Treatment page.

    Honestly, could this be the Virus you are writing of? My symptoms are erratic, yet similar.

    I am still researching AIH, and studies for this disorder seem to constantly mention that AIH is in fact, due to another underlining disease; which is unknown. The only reason AIH exists in the first place, is simply one’s immune system attacking the liver, because it’s attempting to fight off something else within the body.

    When that doctor asked me “did they ever find the cause for your AIH”, this began to make me wonder.

    I am not skilled (in any way) with medical viruses, or terminology, so I sort of feel stupid about most of this information contained on the site. Would someone please help me to better understand what I am faced with?

    Could this new virus be an underlining cause of AIH?

    Maybe, certain humans have been carriers of this virus from a young age. Thus, the virus may have mutated to other strains, over the years of contracting other viral infections throughout our lives?

    Couldn’t this be why the Virus affects people in different ways?

    Thank you very much for listening to my story.

    Sending love and courage to you all,


  156. Hi Kitty

    Thanks for your post. It is a long but compelling read!

    I may need to think a little longer about your circumstances, but on first analysis, I can make some suggestions right now. You likely have more than one health condition going on at the same time.

    The first, most important treatment that I can suggest – that will very likely help your symptoms a lot – is using the two anti-inflammatory approaches described on the Treatments Page. These use safe dietary supplements, and in combination they work well. They will not interfere with any medication you are taking.

    You may well have caught this virus (or a similar one), as its symptoms do seem to be there, mixed in with all the other symptoms you have, but the two anti-inflammatory approaches are an effective treatment, and will dramatically reduce the anxiety and the other mental effects of this virus. You may start to feel much better, literally within days.

    I think this anti-inflammatory approach will have additional benefits for your liver inflammation too (your AIH – autoimmune chronic hepatitis). Also, consider taking the herb milk thistle in good quantities twice a day. Milk thistle can regenerate the liver.

    You said you were poisoned by metals when you were young. Do you know what metals these were (for example: mercury, lead, arsenic, cadmium, aluminum)?

    If these metals are still in your body, they can alter the functioning of immune system in a way that tends to cause allergies, and that tends to make it harder to fight off viruses; this may be the reason for your allergies.

    Heavy metal poisoning can shift your immune system state from the Th1 mode, into the Th2 mode. When it is chronically shifted into the Th2 mode, the immune system becomes very sensitive to chemicals in the environment, so that you develop allergies. And furthermore, since you need to be in the Th1 mode to fight off viruses in your body, when your are shifted away from the Th1 and into the Th2 mode, you find it more difficult to fight off viruses.

    You may want to be tested for heavy metal toxicity. It may be contributing to your ill health. There are some ways to help detoxification of heavy metals.

    Your vaccinations were likely for hepatitis A, or hepatitis B (or both combined). VERY rarely, hepatitis B vaccine has been associated with developing chronic fatigue syndrome, but this tends to happen almost immediately. So if you were fine in the months following the hep jabs, then this was probably not the cause of your symptoms.

    – Hip

  157. Paresthesias: I think I have finally found something reasonably effective for stopping the pins and needles sensations in the nerves under the skin (paresthesias), which I think is due to the inflammation and/or the high oxidation states precipitated by this virus.

    The treatment is benfotiamine (which is a special form of vitamin B1 that is soluble in fats as well as water; normal vitamin B1 is only water soluble).

    This solubility in fats allows benfotiamine to penetrate the fatty outer coating (fatty sheaf) around the nerves, and once inside the nerves, benfotiamine acts as a protective anti-oxidant.

    The benfotiamine dose is 2 x 80 mg tablets, once or twice a day. (I find that sometimes just 160 mg (2 tablets) is enough, but on other days, I need to take a little more).

    An added extra benefit of benfotiamine is that it seems to soothe the mental tensions, anxiety and brain inflammation too. I am hoping that this special vitamin will help protect the brain from damage.

    The other vitamin that effectively treats pins and needles is high dose methylcobalamin, which is a specific form of vitamin B12.

    A good write up about neuropathy (nerve damage) and paresthesias is here:


  158. update on my progress with Equilibrant:

    The increase in symptoms has subsided and I am feeling pretty good since my last post near a week ago. tomorrow is the two week mark since starting Equilibrant, and I am now supposed to double my intake. I seem to be tolerating the herbs quite well. I don’t have any side effects from it that i can tell, except for a mild stomach ache if I don’t eat when I take them. I hope the increased dosage will see me feeling even better soon.

    symptoms that seem to be improving so far:

    – Body aches and pains

    – muscle pain

    – abdominal pain

    – Mental clarity

    – bowel motility

    – hemorrhoids

    – gums and tongue looking healthier, no more geographic tongue and white coating is diminishing

    No improvement in skin wrinkles but they haven’t gotten worse.

    REPLY: Excellent. If you keep getting good results, I may try Equilibrant/oxymatrine myself again.

    – Hip

  159. Hey hip I was wanting some advice from you. So the treatment has been helping considerably and I have been trying my best to stick to it but kinda had a fumble this last week but i’m getting back into my motion of health. Now I took your advice about seeking a infectious disease specialist(IFDS) who is an expert on CFS. Now I talked to my neurologist sense he seems to be the one who has helped me the most and also the most competent. He told me that he knew of a doctor at stanford who was a very well know and respected DR who was a (IFDS)/ expert in CFS. He explained the hole insurance thing to me and what would happen if he tried to send me right away with out going to the clinics specialist first. Only thing was that I was more likely to get biased judgment and a unserious focus on my problems with the clinic specialist. Also because of the insurance policy to gamble and try to lower cost from the hospital he explained that they would red flag it and make me go to the clinic doctor first(spending more money) then end up making me pay more at the stanford hospital because they would try to refute the original price offered by the hospital and pay half making stanford come back with a double amount of what they would normally charge. Over all in more simple terms making me spend more money then if they just paid the original amount offered. Insurance spend the same I spend hella more form the hole ordeal. I just wanted to add that because our insurance companies are fucking us all over. Anyways the interesting good news is he said he would contact him and see if he would take me on as a research patient considering that I’m a good candidate because of my symptoms. That would cancel all the insurance high cost and I could contribute to helping everyone with top research at stanford for CFS and keep everyone updated with my experiences there. I forget the DR’s Name but I will find out and let you know, my doc wanted to try and see if he could help me further before sending me over there. My follow up is at the end of the month. Now what I wanted to ask you before forget LOL is I just received oxymatrine and was wondering if I should even try using it yet if I am about to embark on this journey. If I use it and I get tested by him it could change my results is my fear I guess not that I would not tell him I was using it. But maybe it be better to wait. what you think him? and if u think it wont matter what where the recommended doses and procedures of taken it?

  160. @ fernando

    I have been on oxymatrine for two weeks, and have just started increasing the dose today. oxymatrine does not work for everyone, and can make things much worse if you do not take it properly. You MUST increase the dosage slowly over many weeks and you cannot just stop taking it once you start unless you taper off of it gradually, or you can get much sicker very fast. This happened to a friend of mine who is also seeing the same Dr. as me. If you read up a few posts, you can see my latest update. I am feeling much better on a daily basis now and hope to continue to improve. Another thing to consider is that oxymatrine is not something that works in a short amount of time. I am expected to be taking it for at least a year.

    Hip, Fernando seems to trust your opinion a bit more than mine perhaps (no hard feeling Fernando lol) so chime in on my comments if you like. We know from your comments here that oxymatrine was not as successful a treatment for you at the time as it seems to be for me, but I think it may be worth looking at again, as you mentioned above. I’ll be keeping everyone here informed of my progress of course.

  161. I think what Fernando is asking is not about the efficacy of the oxymatrine treatment, but rather whether going on oxymatrine just before getting tested for viral infections, etc, may interfere with these tests.

    In other words, when getting viral antibody titers measured, will the oxymatrine start to lower the titers, so that you don’t get a proper result.

    This is a good question.

    I have just done a little searching, and found this comment:

    “It is my understanding from Dr. Chia that it takes some time on oxymatrine for the ARUP Coxsackie titers to drop. In other words they do not drop in the first few months of treatment. In my daughter’s case, after three months:

    coxsackievirus B2 dropped from 1:640 to 1:320

    coxsackievirus B3 dropped from 1:640 to 1:80

    coxsackievirus B4 stayed the same at >1:640 ”

    This info comes from this thread on oxymatrine (this whole thread is worth glancing at). At the beginning of that thread, it mentions that the success rate with oxymatrine is more like around 20%. I think myself, “Asklepius”, and “Bastante” on this website have all tried oxymatrine without seeing much results; but this sort of thing is to be expected, given a 20% success rate.

    Anyway, it seems that oxymatrine is slow to work. Oxymatrine is a long-term game plan.

    If you think you are going to get your viral tests within a month or so, I would probably wait until after these tests are done, just to be sure.

    DOSING: The dose is 300 mg of oxymatrine, taken once a day to start with. If after a few weeks you are fine on this dose, then start to take 300 mg twice a day. After a few more weeks, if you are still fine, increase to 300 mg three times a day.

    The reason for this slow build-up of doing is because some people have strong reactions to oxymatrine, so it is best to build up slowly into the full dose of 300 mg three times a day.

    Perhaps “E” can confirm this. “E” is our resident expert on oxymatrine, as he is currently undertaking this oxymatrine treatment as a patient of Dr John Chia (who has pioneered scientific study on oxymatrine for CFS).

    Note that oxymatrine is not the only treatment in town. There are other immune boosters available, so if oxymatrine does not work for you after say 2 or 3 months, you can try another immune booster.

  162. Haha, well I’m not an expert so much as trying to learn all I can about it. Good link Hip. I think the main thing I am surmising about oxymatrine treatment is that its not gonna do much by itself, and if used incorrectly, will mislead the patient to believe it is not working, especially if the patient does not know to expect an increase in symptoms for a bit. I think it might not be too effective for those that are still very ill. Those of you who read this blog regularly know that I have put great efforts into getting well myself, and those efforts seem to have paid off. Here is a basic breakdown of my approach, which started long before I started the oxymatrine:

    I have eliminated from my diet:

    – all processed food as much as possible

    – all sources of caffeine, even the slightest bit

    – refined sugar and flour

    – alcohol and marijuana

    – soda

    – red meat (personal choice, maybe not necessary)

    ** water and freshly juiced vegetables, and other 100% juice is the only beverages I consume, and I drink only high PH water whenever reasonable, which for me is the great majority of the time. **

    I make sure to allow myself 8 hours of sleep EVERY night.

    I take anti inflammatory supplements and Larix, the latter of which I am completely convinced has had the greatest beneficial effect on my condition than any other thing listed above.

    I eat a bowl of squash soup a day, every day, to keep my bowel in motion. I find that constipation for a few days results in a week or more of reduced health for me. My theory is it gives the virus a chance to proliferate and leak into my body where it causes a chain reaction.

    I exercise. I am lucky enough to be feeling well enough to go snowboarding on the weekends in the winter, and hiking and mountain biking in the summer. It took me awhile to get to that point but I am there now. Exercise is important I believe to beating this.

    I have followed the above protocol for over a year now and have seen slow but steady improvement. I think that this is the time to be on oxymatrine, when my body is better prepared to utilize the benefits oxymatrine is providing.

    Hope that helps someone! :)

  163. oxymatrine update:

    Yesterday I increased my dosage to two pills a day. I am feeling an immediate increase in fatigue, just like the first week I started taking it. If it follows the same pattern as the first round, it should subside in a day or two. I will let you all know.

  164. Yes thank you, Hip!

    I agree, my post was very long :)

    For the moment, i haven’t tried any treatment, but I have noted them down, and will definitely try them out.

    I hadn’t visited the site in quite sometime.

    I’ve also went to consult a doctor, and have been prescribed APO CEFPROZIL due to my sinus infection.

    Regarding your question about the metal, it was an long outdoor construction nail which tore my leg (very big gash, many stitches). From what I read on the internet, it could be stainless steel?

    Strangely enough, I do remember that after my vaccinations, my fatigue symptoms worsened.

    Thanks again, I will try out those treatments.

    In the meantime, I’m reading up on CFS, Epstein-Barr, HHV-6, and am quite discouraged.

    ALL the list of symptoms on CFS listed on this site – I have. And they are worsening. They are gradual, but nevertheless present.

    Take good care

  165. TO: KittyKat

    As far as I can see, the skin symptoms is fairly unique to this virus. So I think this increases the chances that you have the same virus.

    The anti-inflammatory supplements will help a lot with the general mental symptoms like anxiety, etc, but unfortunately this is not a cure.

    We are always on the lookout for better treatments.

  166. @ Anonymous

    > there are more more reasons to think that CFS is not caused by a virus rather than bacteria.

    >The reason is simple. Staphylococcus is very “strong” >bacterium and would produce potentially very serious

    > condition in a short time.

    Hey, man! You r the one who have balls!…ee i mean brain! )

    It is pleasure to read you. There is quite little amount of people here who really able to think wide.

    I have to disappoint you, because any appeal to common sense about bacterial etiology will be refused here.

    Don’t waste your time.


    @ Hip

    >Have you been checked for hepatitis? Hepatitis can result in high bilirubin.

    Hip, you r so naive!… Are you really think that all is such simple? There are no any kind of hepatis is this man – i’m sure for 150% because he is not the one.

    > There are very likely multiple causes of CFS.

    WRONG! All talk that the cause is same in all cases. Little(!) differences in sympthoms could be explained by the difference of site of entry from case to case.

    Open your eyes!

    REPLY: What I have noticed about many people with CFS is that they become obsessed and convinced that they know the true one cause of CFS, and everyone else is wrong. So for example, there are many people that believe CFS is psychosomatic/psychological, and that it can be cured with say relaxation techniques. When you speak to these people, no matter what you say, they will ridicule the idea that CFS can be caused by a bacterium or virus.

    In fact, there may be a modicum of truth to the psychological factors in CFS, since extreme stress can shift the immune response from Th1 (intracellular) to Th2 (humoral), so emotional stress may play some small part in the CFS equation.

    I am very interested in bacterial causal factors that may be part of the CFS equation. This is why I had a stool (fecal) analysis done, to discover if there were any pathogenic in my intestines.

    Have you had a stool (fecal) analysis performed, Kozac? Do you know which bacterial species are present in your intestines? Do you know if you have Staphylococcus, Klebsiella, Clostridium, etc in your intestines? Do you know if you have any fungal co-infections in your intestines?

    If not, this is fecal analysis a very important bacterial test that you should consider taking.

    I am also very interested in the idea that bacterial / viral toxins may be important mechanisms that create the state of chronic fatigue syndrome. For example, Staphylococcus alpha toxin is a pore-making toxin. Could this or other pore-making toxins be responsible for the Channelopathies found in CFS?

    If you want to talk about bacteria, say something interesting. Provide some new ideas, new theories, etc.

    I tested negative for hepatitis A and B.

    – Hip

  167. @ Kozak

    Do you even read all the posts on this site? My test results have all but confirmed at least one case of viral induced CFS, so any effort to deny that CFS can be caused by a virus is therefor refuted.

  168. oxymatrine update:

    My skin wrinkles are going away!!! today they are almost absent on an area of my hand that has had them for over half a year. Wow I hope this continues!

    REPLY: Interesting. It might be worth documenting this improvement in skin wrinkles by a series of pictures. Ideally you should take the pictures under the same lighting conditions (say a night with the same lamp in the same position).

    – Hip

  169. By the way “Anonymous”, can you please create any online name for yourself next time you post a comment. It makes it easier to refer to. Thanks.

  170. @ Hip

    I absolutely intend to as soon as I see consistency. It may have been premature of me to even mention it so soon but i was so excited. As for consistency between pictures, I know the exact spot and lighting conditions the previous ones were taken, and I have the same camera. This should be some interesting stuff if this continues!

  171. @Hip

    >So for example, there are many people that believe CFS is psychosomatic/psychological, and that it can be cured with say relaxation techniques.

    >When you speak to these people, no matter what you say, they will ridicule the idea that CFS can be caused by a bacterium or virus.

    I don’t think that those people are humans, but rather vegetables.

    (There is a joke: Do you know that you can say that any psychotherapist is an idiot? Why? -Because they believe in what they are doing… (: )

    > In fact, there may be a modicum of truth to the psychological factors in CFS,

    There is no any psychological factors in CFS. There is some hormonal instability.

    (But you sure don’t know that because you and people here don’t do anything except virus discussing, possible abstract(! -i.e. NOT system-defined) theories for symtoms explanation and doing usually typical and usually unnecessary\useless tests.

    I’m mean that all these will not move you closer to real etiology.)

    About hormonal instability i know for sure about abnormal fluctuation of ser0tonin(pos. insomnia explaniation), d0pamine, adrenalin, n0radrenaline, abnormal hyperfunction of adrenals in most and many more.

    I don’t know all the pathogenesis details, but for example hyperactivity of cellular part of immune(mainly by huge cytokine expression) can affect ser0tonin and d0pamine production for sure..and not for sure many another fuctions and systems of body.

    So any PSEUDO(!)psychological factors in CFS are SECONDARY and in fact are NOT psychological factors, but are just neurologic symptoms conditioned by bio”physics and chemistry” in the body.

    >Have you had a stool (fecal) analysis performed, Kozac? Do you know which bacterial species are present in your intestines?

    Sure, about 3 years ago at illness debut.

    But just as screening(for biocoenosis estimation) -i mean that i haven’t been looking for something special.

    >Do you know if you have Staphylococcus, Klebsiella, Clostridium, etc in your intestines? Do you know if you have any fungal co-infections in your intestines?

    Hip, Staphylococcus, Klebsiella, Clostridium as well as some fungs(like Candida) are NORMAL INHABITANTS of gastrointestinal tract(esp. at lower segments) -i.e. resident flora.

    >If not, this is fecal analysis a very important bacterial test that you should consider taking.

    Thanks for advice, but it is abs. unimportant test and possibly(IMHO) totaly vain.

    >Could this or other pore-making toxins(S.aureus) be responsible for the Channelopathies found in CFS?

    Hip, Channelopathies described there is the same shitt(sorry) as many virus\psychological explanition by med. butterheads.

    Symtomps of that “Channelopathies” are really not directly conected to peripheral nervs.

    The real cause is in inflammation of lymphatic vessels, and small physical afecting of nervs is in fact secondary.

    Indeed there is quite complex\intricate pathogenesis to describe here at 1:30 am.

    >If you want to talk about bacteria, say something interesting. Provide some new ideas, new theories, etc.

    … How 99% people going to react on next theory\idea?

    Can i expect for any REAL(!) help with expremental\statistic theory\idea inspection from this auditory? -for sure NO! (why? – read my previous talks here)

    So for what purposes i have to discuss any theories here?


    I get tired from theories.

    I’m going to prove before, find solution, get cured and only after “open my mouth”.

    You can sure that i will notify you personaly when i will get my full life back.



    My test results have all but confirmed at least one case of viral induced CFS, so any effort to deny that CFS can be caused by a virus is therefor refuted.

    E, most of your tests are useless and unnecessary.

    At the same time many necessary tests was not done. Even many general\typical\usual(i.e. as a must in clinical medicine) physiological tests(what can provide some information about possible etiology of body condition) weren’t done.

    I even don’t undestand on what base most here doing there conclusions and ground there thoughts.

    REPLY: No, certain bacteria like Staphylococcus, and Proteus can be pathogenic in the gut, if they exist in high numbers. A good fecal analysis lab will tell you not only the species of bacteria, but also the approximate population size of each species. Staphylococcus is quite rare: only 7% of the population have Staphylococcus aureus in their gut.

    See if you can reply to this calmly, and without too much invective.

    – Hip

  172. god hip please ban kozak. please please please please!

    As far as i can tell through the apparent language barrier, his thoughts are incomplete, backed by no real sustainable or discussable points, and only serve to antagonize.

    man i wish you would ban him.

  173. @E

    God, E you don’t understand that this is impossible to do technically in such blog?

    @ KittyKat

    Please DON’t try your “suit” on me!

    “Anonymous” is another person to whom it would be pleasure to talk privately.

    REPLY: It’s not always like this on this blog, KittyKat. Most weeks are calm and placid!

    – Hip

  174. Anonymous and Kozak is not the same person!

    CFS may develop from many viral and bacterial infections. This is already proved. E.g. many cases develop from mononucleosis, but treatment of EBV does not resolve CFS. Many viruses and bacteria are contributing, but not causative agents of CFS (EBV, HHV6, CMV, streptococci…). Most of the viral infections in CFS are caused by insuficient intracellular detox (by glutathione peroxidase enzym). It was proved by many CFS experts. And compromised detoxication is most probably caused by LPS of gut bacteria (leaking from gut into bloodstream and compromising thuss iver function). Many hormonal imbalances in HPA axis are due to this. But root cause of leaking LPS is no yet known.

    REPLY: Yes, lack of glutathione can shift the immune system from a Th1 into a Th2 response. This is how mercury intoxication can cause a shift to Th2: mercury depletes glutathione, and then low glutathione causes a shift to Th2.

    Recently I read that dendritic cells (a type of antigen-presenting cell) will eat viruses, break down the virus, and then will travel to a lymph node, and present the protein fragments of the virus on the dendritic cell’s surface, for consideration by T cells in the lymph node. This is standard stuff.

    However, in CFS, the lymph nodes are generally swollen, so this makes me wonder if there may be a major malfunction in the lymph nodes, so that the antigen-presenting dendritic cells cannot properly activate the T cells.

    It may be that the swollen lymph nodes are due to say a bacterial/viral infection, but this infection disrupts the lymph nodes, so that that when the person also catches a respiratory virus, the immune system does not operate properly, due to dendritic cell / lymph node malfunction. Dendritic cell are important in directing the immune system to either Th1 or Th2. For example, it could be that the swollen lymph nodes have a low-level chronic Epstein-Barr infection; now, EBV can create its own version of the cytokine IL-10, which in the lymph nodes may alter the immune response towards the Th2 direction. So if you then catch another virus like coxsackievirus B, or an intracellular bacterium like Chlamydia pneumoniae, the immune system may have difficulty in eliminating it, since these both require a Th1 response, but the lymph nodes may be locked into Th2.

    The general idea is that it may take a combination of bacteria and/or viruses to create chronic fatigue syndrome. CFS may require a certain “recipe” of several viruses and bacteria.

    This is why no single virus or bacterium has ever been found that ALWAYS causes CFS in every person, every time. Most viruses or bacteria associated with CFS can also be found in healthy people. So why do some people get CFS? It seems to me that it is likely that it takes certain combinations of pathogens to precipitate CFS.

    – Hip

  175. Hip,

    that may be true, but CFS has many charcteristic symptoms, which indicates that it is preferrably caused by one virus/bacteria. Otherwise general immunity disfunction leads to wide variety of symptoms from mild to fatal, which is not typical for CFS. Mercury (and basicaly any other heavy metal that replaces e.g. zinc in detoxifying enzym may cause impaired glutathione peroxidase -iron, cadmium, hydrargyrum and many others). We can probably only guess but i would preffer iron (that contains bacteria). Bacteria living in epithelial cells are suspected (chlamydia, staphylococcus).

    REPLY: If you look at other diseases, most diseases are associated with many different microbes. Alzheimer’s disease is associated with the virus herpes simplex virus 1, Chlamydia pneumoniae, Helicobacter pylori, and the protozoan Toxoplasma gondii. Autism is associated with infection during pregnancy by rubella virus or cytomegalovirus.

    So it is not unusual for a disease to have multiple microbial associations.

    – Hip

  176. @ Anonymous

    > Bacteria living in epithelial cells are suspected.

    Right! But i’d rather say:

    1.Low(!) pathogenic bacteria, with ability of intracellular invasion.

    2.And rather in endothelial systems of body.

  177. Alzheimers, Autism, MS, psoriasis, CFS…, are in my opinion the same disease, depending on which part of the body the medical tests are primarily focused.

  178. @ Anonymous

    Don’t think that Alzheimers, Autism are the same as CFS, but chronic Lyme\bart “internet-epidemies” -for sure.

    (in fact chronic PSEUDO-Lyme\Bart)

  179. @ KittyKat

    For allergy attacks you can try to use CHLOROPYRAMINUM (for exm. SUPRASTIN by Egis).

    It usually works when advenced H1-blockators failed (such as LORATADINUM or CETIRIZINUM).

  180. Kozak,

    some time ago almost all of autoimune disease were thaught to be caused by iron overload. Brains o MS patients contains iron leasions and veins also. ALzheimers simmilarly. And iron may cause low grade inflamation and as well gut problems. If we put hemochromatosis aside than there is only some kind of basteria left i guess.

  181. Has anyone ever tried ozone treated water to increase the oxygen content in the body past the viruses survivability tolerances?

    REPLY: People with CFS have experimented with ozone therapies of different sorts.

    Ozonated water seems to produce negative results, but interestingly, ozone gas absorbed through the skin, applied via a large wearable “bag” (with your head outside the bag so you don’t breathe the ozone) seems to produce good results.

    See this thread.

    – Hip

  182. my symptoms seem to be those of a mild case….nasal mucus, mild psychological ….. contact was in 1990 first symptoms were right arm muscleweakness, hearing difficulties, facial nerve schwannoma surgery, 8/94,. Multiple lattice degeneration laser surguries..Bilateral cataract surgery, left eye detached retina, sucessful surgery, lens implant rt side came loose, rt eye detached retina, three surgeries = no vision rt eye. PTTS rt ankle. Fat replacement (lypodstrophy), rapid decay of teeth, fine,wrinkled skin, red blotches, reddish color on upper chest. Several partners have several of the above.

    please email me.

    REPLY: I have emailed you as requested.

    Looks like you could conceivably have this virus. It certainly has caused some optic nerve problems in one person.

    However, detached retina is associated with cytomegalovirus – do you know if you are cytomegalovirus-positive? In conjunction with this unknown sore throat virus, which is immunosuppressive, this may allow cytomegalovirus to reactivate more in your body, leading to the eye problems. Cataracts can also be caused by cytomegalovirus.

    A herb called Terminalia chebula can help suppress cytomegalovirus (dose: 4 grams a day). I happen to have cytomegalovirus myself, and find Terminalia chebula does reduce certain symptoms I have.

    – Hip

  183. I like the new article in the Wall Street Journal about CFS. I didn’t realize that someone else had come to the same conclusions about a retrovirus causing this back in 1990, only to be rejected by the contamination argument.

    That is very interesting. Maybe this time the researchers will not lose hope.

  184. Enough,

    some people dates their CFS back to 60’s or even sooner. From known disorders CFS symptom mostly match to those of thyroiditis -Hashimoto’s thyroiditis. Altough the thyroid gland itself does not have to be affected there maybe found antibodies to thyroid receptors in cells in many cases of CFS. And these are often explained as IgG4 (food intolerance) relat6ed. which may confirm “leaky gut” mucosa.

    REPLY: Hypothyroid disorders in general can cause symptoms more-or-less identical to CFS. So is always a good idea to have your thyroid levels checked if you experienceCFS-like symptoms, just in case it is low thyroid that is really your problem.

    – Hip

  185. A French kiss exchanges around 250 types of Bacteria and Viruses, as well as water and fats.

    Blowing a kiss dates back to the days of the plague.

    It was considered unclean for church

    leaders to be touched by commoners so

    followers had to blow kisses to show their adoration.

  186. @ HIP

    >Hypothyroid disorders in general can cause symptoms more-or-less identical to CFS.

    Hip, you always forget about possible revers connection -i.e. it may be that Hypothyroid disorders are consequence\one of results of long standing CFS.

    Thereby in could be wrong interpretation as usually.

    Sure, i don’t know for sure )

    REPLY: I don’t think any direct causal link between hypothyroidism and CFS has been demonstrated, though in the future, it may be found that hypothyroid disorders are often caused by some sort of infection of the thyroid gland that results in lower levels of thyroid hormones (thyroxine and triiodothyronine). So in this sense, in the future it may be found that hypothyroidism may result from a chronic infection, just like CFS.

    However hypothyroidism is not considered to be CFS, as hypothyroidism is treatable simply by taking replacement thyroid hormone, usually just thyroxine. But for people with CFS, taking replacement thyroid hormone does not help. So the mechanism of CFS appears to different to the mechanism of hypothyroidism, even though the symptoms are very similar.

    Nevertheless, the fact that the symptoms are so similar may provide some useful clues to the nature of CFS.

    – Hip

  187. @ Hip

    you have mixed symptoms and syndroms.


    hypothyroidism -symptom*

    CFS – syndrome#

    Thus, it is more likely that in most cases symptom* is just a part of syndrome#.

    Sure true hypothyroidism may exist separately, but if it goes along with another well know symptoms then it probably should be considered as part of complex syndrome#.

  188. On the other hand, it is said, that women suffer from CFS (and other autoimmunity), app. 2-3 times more often than men. This can make connection to yeast infections, as an origin of CFS, more possible.

  189. New center to fight infectious disease opens in Australia, bringing together bacterial, viral and fungal disease researchers with infectious disease doctors, and experts in nanotechnology, structural biology, cell biology, immunology and therapeutic development.

    “Without the development of new diagnostics, therapeutics and vaccines, there will be devastating impacts on the global economy and international security,” Professor Walker said.


  190. I don’t know if any of your have been following the story in Chiang Mai, northern Thailand, where to date 5 different people have mysteriously died (in their hotel rooms, etc) from sudden heart attack or heart inflammation.

    That sound familiar to you?

    And guess what: Coxsackie B virus was found in the body of a New Zealand tourist who died in Chiang Mai last month (though this does not definitively prove that Coxsackie B was the cause).

    Though another report says it was an echovirus.

    The World Health Organization (WHO) have been asked to look into this outbreak.



  191. >And guess what: Coxsackie B virus was found in the body of a New Zealand tourist who died in Chiang Mai last >month (though this does not definitively prove that Coxsackie B was the cause).

    But that doesn’t clue their deth.

    Moreover usually such viruses are salvation\rescue for autopsists\pathologists when they they don’t know what was happen, but “must” find a cause.

    i.e. the same shit as stress was for many years, .. stress -old shit, viruses -new shit. )

  192. Hello everyone,

    It’s been a while since I’ve been here. I’ve been doing my own experiments on supplements. If people last read my posts here, I talked about anti-viral therapies. After feeling like I was deterioring, outside of paying a ton of money for HIV anti-virals, I started with herbal stuff not thinking too much into it. I started with elderberry, then I used other stuff like Olive Leaf Extract and lactoferrin. The Elderberry had helped me keep HSV-1 in check since I had recurrent bouts of it. The olive leaf extract did nothing. I still felt irritated however. My skin was still blotchy red livedo like. I then started taking selenium after reading a study where people with HIV had a decrease in viral load after being on 200 mcg/day for a year. I began to use selenium 200 mcg/day along with elderberry & lactoferrin everyday. It was a slow progression but I began to feel better after a few weeks. Little by little, my skin is no longer as dry as it was and the livedo has died down little by little. It’s stopped peeling. I had a conversation with Hip about this and I didn’t want to report anything until I had further resullts that I could judge from.

    Fast forward to when my bottle of selenium ran out. I got another bottle and it seemed like it wasn’t working. I began to feel irritated again very quickly over a few days span. I then thought perhaps there was a resistance to the selenium. I then upped the dosage to 400 mcg/day. After that, I felt even better than before over time. I no longer have the viral headaches that bothered me so much and my skin improved. I know that I still have this thing yet I feel like I am no longer deteriorating. I have for now kept it in check. I think it’s mainly the selenium that did the trick or perhaps it had a synergenic effect with elderberry and lactoferrin. I’m not going to question any of it at this point as I am taking this combo everyday and probably will have to for the rest of my life but it beats paying for AIDS drugs.

    I know I’ll never be 100% back to the way I was but I am probably now the best that I can be and almost living a normal life again. Some things remained permanent like the easy wrinkling of the skin but the dryness, livedo, and peeling has improved. My chronic sore throat comes out every so often but it doesn’t last very long (maybe for just a few seconds). I am happy to say that I am much better than before.

    I probably won’t be a regular on this board anymore since I have improved in my condition. However, I just wanted to let eveyone here know since I know what’s it like to feel like deteriorating for a while and that it’s the right thing to do. Hope this helps. If anyone decides to take selenium, take it for the long term and everyday. Don’t stop just because you feel a little better. Just like any other anti-viral, you have to keep taking them perhaps for the rest of your life and if you stop, you could let whatever virus it is build up a resistance and that’s bad even for the rest of us who are on selenium. I don’t want any new resistant forms of virus out there since it’s fairly contagious in my opinion. IF YOU TRY SELENIUM EVERYDAY, TAKE IT SERIOUSLY AND DON’T STOP.

  193. I think that it is possible to recover from CFS even after years. The reason for this is that I did recover for a period of year or so, until i have not resumed smoking. Anyway i think that the most defficient element in CFS is zinc. As many others i have tried many different supplements that did not work. It costed lot of money and results were vague. One that really works for me is garlic extract (combined with diet low in milk, sugar and gluten).

  194. @ C

    I can definitely relate what you’ve written. I KNOW I’ve infected others around me, and feel helpless since its not identifiable, and keep being told by doctors that “its just a cold”, or “just a sore throat”, or just MY HEAD!

    I spent 3 weeks on anti-biotics, and on the second to last day before I was completed, all my symptoms returned.

    Starting with my Sore Throat.

    That was a week ago. My sore throat is still present, as is a horrible cough, now.

    My entire body aches from coughing for over 48 hours.

    I’m cold. Always so bloody cold!!

    My hands and feet are a blue-ish hue, and hands are full of wrinkles.

    (How do I post a picture?)

    I’m ashamed to say, I’ve been secretly praying for death lol (in a laughing-type manner, yet, I know its no laughing matter)

    REPLY: I know how you feel KK, sometimes I feel so tired and weak, that when I lie down for a sleep, it actually becomes a pleasant thought in my mind that moment that I might just go to sleep forever!

    A couple of years ago I had incredibly intense suicidal ideations. I could not get these thought out of my mind. What made most of these suicidal thoughts disappear was the anti-inflammatory treatment, believe it or not. After that, I realized that suicidal ideation was actually a symptom of my altered brain chemistry.

    If you want to post a picture on this site, there is no direct way, unfortunately, but if you email me the image, I can upload it. Or else you can upload your picture to another site (like Facebook), and then put a link to this picture in your comment. Either way.

    – Hip

  195. BTW: I also thought I was the victim of mould, yet it turned out, I am just more sensitive to it. The mould had not yet sprouted, but nevertheless, I still had all the symptoms.

    I also, cannot be in direct sunlight for more than a few moments….my scalp burns and turns blood red, and my skin itches horribly. I get red patches in a few seconds… it feels like a magnifying glass on my skin.

  196. Ahh KK, firstly here is a huge hug for you! So so sorry you are suffering too. Did you get any testing done at all? Mycoplasma etc?

    Re your sore throat returning. Did you notice that your house is a ‘carrier’ lol that souns weird.. My feeling is that treatment whilse still in this house is going to be a lil pointless. Wondering if others have noticed this thing contaminating objects?. Again at first i thought it was the mold here. Now i know its not just that at all.

    Feel free to email me at jodana@hushmail.com that goes to anyone. Could do with the mutual emotional suppprt.

  197. Hi, this is all pretty frightening. Without going into details this ‘virus ‘ describes me to a T. I do not get the cough oddly, well very occasionally I do but this seems unique to me. the cough is picked up by others around me who become ‘infected’.

    I really feel a great responsibillity to get tested and find answers since its now obvious that I’ve been infecting others. What do you think of PCR and live blood analysis? I believe ths could be a mycoplasma.

    You do mention that infection of others is slowish. Contrary to this I have noticed lately, now that im aware of the phenomenon, that others are becoming infected very very quickly, sometimes within days. Sometimes the cough or fatigue is immediate. Very scary. Ive also noticed that objects become infected. My whole house is very contaminated and certain objects are worse especially those which are used frequently.. Lounges, beds etc. The house makes me very ill. This whole thing is quite insane.

    I would like to warn friends and others whove been infected but until there are answers and clear cut treatments perhaps ignorance is better. Hence i’m interested in the testing.

    At first Figured I had mold illness as mold illness also causes breakdown of immunity and aids type illness if not caught early enough, but perhaps this infection is what has made me so sensitive to moulds and chemicals.

    Im feeling quite anxious as a result of the condition but also as a result of this bizzare reality. Its really a lot to deal with..

    REPLY: Hi C.

    Thanks for posting.

    Objects cannot get infected. It may be that your lounges, beds, etc, contains allergens like bed mites, or mold, which makes you feel worse when you are near them.

    Live blood analysis is more or less nonsense; avoid that. The thing you should do is see an infectious disease doctor that deals in chronic fatigue syndrome (some CFS doctors are listed on the Treatments Page).

    I would strongly recommend starting on the Anti-Inflammatory Treatment 1 and 2 detailed on this Treatments Page, which will hopefully make you feel much better mentally, and more able to cope.

    – Hip

  198. >Objects cannot get infected. It may be that your lounges, >beds, etc, contains allergens like bed mites, or mold, which >makes you feel worse when you are near them.

    Oh believe me i know how crazy it sounds but have indeed found it to be the case that objects do get contaminated. If this is indeed a mycobacteria, surely this is not inconcievable. Mycobacteria are known possible contaminants of water damaged buildings. There is high humidity in this house and this would contribute to growth if this isnmycobacteria.. Most definately it is not other allergens. I havnt seen too many others on this site mention this aspect but did read of another lady who experienced this. Im not a cougher yet others get sick in my prescence or from being around items from my house/ car. Grr so frustrating having another weird unbelievable aspect to this weird unbelievable affliction!!

    I spoke with a specialist today who tests and treats mycoplasmas. She mentioned that several of her clients had to leave furniture behind and move house having also experienced this phenomena.

    >Live blood analysis is more or less nonsense; avoid that. The thing you should do is see an infectious disease doctor that deals in chronic fatigue syndrome (some CFS doctors are listed on the Treatments Page).

    Thanks, what of PCR testing? What do you think of it?

    >I would strongly recommend starting on the Anti-Inflammatory Treatment 1 and 2 detailed on this Treatments Page, which will hopefully make you feel much better mentally, and more able to cope.

    Thanks, i hope so too. Have you seen much improvement yourself?

    REPLY: Wow. It looks like you are absolutely right C: it seems you can get respiratory inflammation from Mycobacteria in the air of water-damaged buildings. I just found this study that demonstrated that lots of inflammatory effects occur in the lungs of mice when exposed to Mycobacterium from the indoor air of a moisture-damaged building. Note that the study says TNF-alpha was raised in these mice. TNF-alpha is a powerful pro-inflammatory signal in the body; TNF-alpha can be reduced by the anti-inflammatory herb cat’s claw – a potent inhibitor of TNF-alpha production. Something you may want to try?

    I have say that this is completely new to me. I had never heard about Mycobacteria being a potential indoor health hazard. Very interesting. I will try to read up on it, and I will answer you more fully once I have read more.

    Is there any thing you can do to lower the humidity in your home? This may help, if it is Mycobacteria causing your problem. Any idea of why it is so humid? You can buy dehumidifiers, you know.

    I had a huge improvement with anti-inflammatories. I had anxiety so bad, I was often in a more-or-less psychotic condition at times. Pure hell. Lasted for years. SSRI anti-depressant / anti-anxiety drugs made be feel MUCH worse, so these did not help. Only the anti-inflammatory approach made me almost human again.

    You might find Dr Gina Nick’s website on Sickness Syndrome interesting reading on this. It details the link between inflammation and anxiety / depression.

    But in your case, if it is something like Mycobacteria, then addressing this may be the best approach.

    – Hip

  199. Thanks Hip for your acknowledgmemt! Im very surprised that you had not come across this before.

    Yep to the mould commu ity looking at these symptoms they would say its classic mold illness. Are you aware of the similarities? Have you read dr shoemakers works etc? The major sifference is mold does not cross contaminate so easily.. You cant catch mold illness but looks like you can catch mycobacteria which is part of a water damaged building anyway. Perhaps ive got such high numbers of mycobacteria on my clothing that is why others get sick so easily.

    To give you some idea how bad this house is.. I get instant anxiety on entering the house plus instamtameous yeast growth on my scalp, eyebrows etc, instant jaw and neck pain. Really bad.

    Wondering if you ever experienced a lessening of symptoms when on holliday for example? Hoping the anti inflammatories work given the extreme contamination im dealing with. This whatever it is is very very strong.

    No doubt about it I need to move house but since im chemically sensitive its a complete nightmare finding somewhere thats mould free and hasnt been pesricide sprayed or painted or carpet cleaned etc. Et.c are chemical sensitivites common with this ailment? I know they are with mold illness.

    Below site also describes how some mycobacteria is transmissable on shoes, clothing etc.


    I really recommemd reading drthrasher.org .. Mycobacteria are positive gram bacteria i believe. Also survivng mold.com shoemakers book discusses some treatments for mold illness and they may well be appliccable to some folk here. In particular CSM, a fairly safe cholesterol binding drug xan help to remove biotoxins from the gut

    REPLY: I know that extensive toxic mold exposure in water-damaged property can precipitate chronic fatigue syndrome (which is what you very likely have). IF you look back in earlier comments, you will find the protocol that was used by someone on this site to cure themselves of mold-induced CFS.

    But environmental Mycobacteria from water-damaged building is a new one to me.

    Have you considered trying the Marshall Protocol (MP), which was specifically designed to fight Mycobacteria that have become intracellular (ie, these bacteria will switch into the “L-form”, which is a form that lives inside your cells). Once a bacterium has switched to L-form, it becomes harder to control in the body. The MP was originally devised for sarcoidosis, but some people have found it treats their CFS.

    – Hip

  200. Kk mould could well be a problem causing you all those symttoms too. K just read your story and a lpt of it reads like mine!! A lot! Incliding your childhood experiences. Dont discount that mould could be a sigbificant xontributor to all those symptoms you losted. Im very confused as to whats going on with me compounded no doubt by worsening brain fog!! But one reason i feel mg problem is not just mold and soemthing else is going on is because of the easy contagion from one person to another. In fact it wpuld seem that friends of friends, and dont laugh but Pets of friends are suddenly becoming ill. Lemme see. 3 friends cats and a dog have become sick.. One died from a ‘toxin’ at two years of age, one has conjuctivitis, cant remember the rest right now lol. Im too brain dead to elaborate right now. Take care!

  201. Mould could very well be the cause. I recently moved from a house that had a leaking bathroom pipe, which caused sudden mould growth in my bedroom.

    It was grey.

    However, since I have moved into this appartment, this is when my “allergies” got worse. I haven’t live here long, and noticed yesterday that paint below and around my bedroom window is peeling off…. my bed is directly beside this window. It has been raining this week, and I hear dripping….its difficult to tell if its outside or inside.

    One thing is for sure, there is definitly humidity. The electric heating is directly below this window, and I’ve noticed (if I put it too high) I suddenly feel burning in my throat and eyes, and light headed.

    I presume all of this is just making my symptoms worse….

    ***OFF SUBJECT NOTE: it may be important to note that I was never infected by ChickenPox as a child. How many of you were? I know mostly, children, did get this….

  202. This is interesting point. What if “chronic sore throat”, or “chronic sinusitis” is allergic reaction and not inflammation caused by virus/bacteria? And what may be the cause of such an allergy, if the person was in good health, until somebody “infected” breathe on a person.

  203. Kk is it possible for you to move? Ypur hpuse really does sound as though its making you sick. Mould must absolutely be avoided.

    Oddly, i never got chicken pox either!! Im 32

    Jaw and neck painvery common with mold illness. I think its inflammation. A couple of my friends now have this too :( is your adfliction ‘contagious’.

  204. Look, here are the symptoms of mold illness or CIRS-WDB chronic inflammatory response syndrome caused by exposure to water damaged buildings. If not for the ‘contagion’ aspect i would say there is a very good chance this is what everone has. Now some people have cured CFS by moving out of moldy houses or leaving moldy workplaces. It would be intersting to know how many people here are in some sort of moldy environment keeping in mind that mold can be hidden. Hope this helps someome. Now perhaps the contagion aspect is mycoplasma or bacteria or something like that rather than a virus thats spread through spit or cough. Whatever i have transmits very easily eg if i sat near someone ive started to notice that they often will soon get bags under the eyes, watery eyes and start coughing. The ‘toxic stew’ in a water damaged building is extremely harmfull and can lead to Aids type illness such as those described here. Ok this is the text from survivng mold.com

    Mold illness is not an allergy.  It is inflammation within the body which is caused by an immune system that has gone haywire.  The term “mold illness” is a subcategory of biotoxin illness, called Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome (CIRS).  The proper definition of CIRS is:

    an accute and chronic, systemic inflammatory response syndrome acquired following exposure to the interior environment of a water-damaged building with resident toxigenic organisms, including, but not limited to fungi, bacteria, actinomycetes and mycobacteria as well as inflammagens such as endotoxins, beta glucans, hemolysins, proteinases, mannans, c-type lectins and possibly spirocyclic drimanes, plus volatile ogranic compounds.


    If you are experiencing several of these symptoms, you could be suffering from mold illness.  Take the Online Screening Test to determine your probability of having this illness.

    ♦Fatigue ♦Weakness ♦Aches ♦Muscle Cramps ♦Unusual Pain ♦Ice Pick Pain ♦Headache ♦Light Sensitivity ♦Red Eyes ♦Blurred Vision ♦Tearing ♦Sinus Problems ♦Cough ♦Shortness of Breath ♦Abdominal Pain ♦Diarrhea ♦Joint Pain ♦Morning Stiffness ♦Memory Issues ♦Focus/Concentration Issues ♦Word Recollection Issues ♦Decreased Learning of New Knowledge ♦Confusion ♦Disorientation ♦Skin Sensitivity ♦Mood Swings ♦Appetite Swings ♦Sweats (especially night sweats) ♦Temperature Regulation or Dysregulation Problems ♦Excessive Thirst ♦Increased Urination ♦Static Shocks ♦Numbness ♦Tingling ♦Vertigo ♦Metallic Taste ♦Tremors

    This illness affects multiple systems in the body, which causes the patient to exhibit multiple symptoms.

    How Did I Get Sick?

    This illness happens after exposure to the interior environment of a Water-Damaged Building (WDB).  There are many ways buildings become home to a toxic mix of microbes, fragments of microbes, and harmful chemicals.  Buildings can host fungi, bacteria, mycobacteria, and actinomycetes as a result of construction defects like inappropriate ventilation; faulty construction of crawl spaces or inadequate building design; flat roofs or fake stucco cladding without adequate caulking; incomplete basements exposed to saturated ground water conditions; or not correcting water leaks.

    REPLY: By “Static Shocks”, do you mean electric static shocks from touch metal objects, etc?

    – Hip

  205. Oh, forgot to mention that for those of you who have noticed that just other household members have got this affliction it could be that it is the envrionment itself.. I.e. The water damaged building, rather than this being a viral transmission from person to person.

  206. Mentioned symptoms of moldy houses cover 90% of all known illnessess. Allergy is inflamation in its origin as well, since the mechanism that body uses to eliminate allergens is similar to those of removing bacteria or viruses. I did not notice that my CFS is rapidly spreading on other people. But i do not say that it is not contagious. I would say that person with good immunity will not get CFS even after really long time of exposure.

  207. @ C

    Wow that’s pretty scary!!! The symptoms that you’ve listed above, I have them almost all, except the metallic taste. I taste it more as “blood” (which is very close to an IRON taste come to think of it)

    What is Ice Pick Pain?

    I assume the reason its contagious is because its also on your clothes, in your hair, on your shoes….

    There are a few people i work with, if I get close to them, their eyes become bloodshot red!! They actually blame me! And they assume its because of my “cats”…

    NOTE: would it be possible to contract meningitis due to CIRS?? If CIRS causes inflammation, wouldn’t bacteria pass easier to the brain?? I am NO doctor, so I’m dumb on these types of things…. lol

    No its not possible for me to move….but, I will speak with my landlord and ask her if any water damage has occurred before. And exactly why is my bedroom window paint peeling off?

    HEALTH UPDATE SINCE YESTERDAY: I didn’t think I could get any worse, but all my rhino symptoms came back!! Watery eyes, itching, sharp pains inside my nose, runny nose!! Sore throat, sneezing abnormally often, sore head (scalp), migraine, and slight fever, chills, body shakes.

    **Yesterday, I did not work, so I stayed indoors. Within a few hours, all these symptoms mentioned above had returned. I tried allergy pills, cold/flu medication, and Tylenol. The only thing that helped slightly was Tylenol, and a joint of pot! LOL

    At one point in the evening, I went to the corner store, and all my symptoms vanished!!

    From the moment I stepped back into my apartment block, my eyes began to burn and my throat too. Within a few moments, my nose began to run again, too.

    REPLY: If you feel better outside your home, and if your symptoms reappear within moments of your return, this sounds very much like an allergy to one or more things in your home environment. Allergies tend to have this very rapid kick-in response that you described.

    You know that many people are pretty allergic to cats. Could this be it? Antihistamines can help.

    Why do you ask about meningitis, by the way. Did you experience this, or did something happen to you that you think might be meningitis? The virus described on this website can (and does) cause meningitis.

    – Hip

  208. @ C

    *****That is indeed strange that you neither have ever had chickenpox! Most people have had this as a child.

    Can we do a poll??

    *****How many of you have never had chickenpox??

    *****How many of you have never had chickenpox??

    *****How many of you have never had chickenpox??

    *****How many of you have never had chickenpox??

    REPLY: I was tested positive for varicella zoster virus. Nearly everyone in the adult population has this virus.

    – Hip

  209. Do you guys experience diarrhea frequently in addition to your stomach aches and rumblings?

    REPLY: No chronic diarrhea normally, except if you have IBS as well. People can get diarrhea for a day or two when they first catch this virus, but not chronic diarrhea, as far as I have seen in 30 people with this virus.

    – Hip

  210. Also, is post nasal drip common among people with this or is usually nasal congestion?

    REPLY: It is generally nasal and sinus congestion, with pretty thick mucus, though post nasal drip is also a possibility, I think. This mucus is not like when you have a cold, where the mucus may run down your nose; this mucus is generally too thick to run down the nose, but possibly it may run down the throat. (Post nasal drip = when the mucus exits from the sinuses / nasal cavity, and runs down the back of the throat).

    Some people do show regular throat-clearing after catching this virus, so this may well due to post nasal drip.

    In the first year or two of infection, you find that people are blowing their nose as much as a dozen times a day, in order to clear out this heavy mucus accumulation. After several years, the accumulation does get less, but it is still present.

    – Hip

  211. I have never had chickenpox. But this is no issue i would say. Moldy houses not as well since for 7Euros it is possible to buy calium chloride dehumidifier that will take care of molds. My theory of CFS is that it is caused by bacteria that are able to invade the person with Compromised immunity (after Mononucleosis, strep throat, or something elese). These bacteria (let’s call them chlamydia) are sitting in the cells and creating immunity havoc. It is possible to treat them with ATB but since they make immmunity very sensitive, it takes a year or so for the body to expell them from blood circulation, morover poissoning cells with iron. In the meantime the reinfection is very easy because these bacteria are very common. Is there some weak element in this theory?

    REPLY: It is a good theory, but there are likely many different routes to chronic fatigue syndrome. Just like there are many pathogens that can cause pneumonia.

    – Hip

  212. I have alot of the symptons I did think i was going through the early menaporse but i keep getting a sore throat and am getting aching joints ,numbness in my legs and general stinging ankles and sometimes wrists I am tied with lack of sleep not much enery in the day Am going to have blood tests done ….

  213. >NOTE: would it be possible to contract meningitis due to >CIRS?? If CIRS causes inflammation, wouldn’t bacteria pass >easier to the brain?? I am NO doctor, so I’m dumb on these >types of things…. lol

    Kk, possibly.. If it is a water damaged building thats giving you issues theb some of the bacteriam in the WDB could cause the meningitis as menibgitis can be caused by bacteria as well as viruses o believe. Certainly im no expert either!

    >At one point in the evening, I went to the corner store, and all >my symptoms vanished!!

    >From the moment I stepped back into my apartment block, >my eyes began to burn and my throat too. Within a few >moments, my nose began to run again, too.

    Well there is definately something going on inside your house.

    Ice pick pain.. That refers to the migranes i think which can become like an ice pick pain, eye pain also.

    Your work colleagues.. Do they go on to develop other symptoms to the red eyes?

    Hip, i’m surprised you havnt commented more on the mold illness possibility.

    Here is an excert from dr Jack Thrasher ( from a post he made today. Some of these contaminants can cause lung disease (chronic cough) as well as all the other symptoms.

    ‘The major problem is that most of the individuals, particularly the new members, keep harping on the issue of molds and my. They do not understand that the WDB is a complex mixture of fungi, bacteria and their by-products. The health problems arise from an exposure to this complex environment. Therefore, it is impossible to determine which of the contaminants (e.g. fungus, mycotoxins, endotoxins, beta glucans, extracellular proteins) that are person adversely responds to. Therefore, what works for one individual may not work for another. Probably the most overlooked indoor contaminants are the Actinomycetes (Streptomyces, Mycobacterium, Nocardia as examples). These organisms can set up serious respiratory disease, e.g. Hypersensitivity pneumonitis, Mediastinal sarcoidosis), etc. If a person has lung disease, then what are they responding to? These are some of the problems that victims of WDB are facing.’


    QUOTE: “Hip, i’m surprised you havnt commented more on the mold illness possibility.”

    I am interested in these things, but remember, this website is primarily about a possibly new virus (or new strain of an existing virus) in circulation, and about the symptoms and characteristics of this virus, and the diseases/medical conditions it can precipitate. The diseases/conditions precipitated by the virus described on this website include: myocarditis, pericarditis, sudden heart attacks (some of which have been fatal), viral meningitis, chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), generalized anxiety disorder (GAD), psychosis, sudden onset tooth decay and periodontal disease, anhedonia, depression, fatigue, some social withdrawal.

    If you have this virus, you will have possibly experienced many of these yourself, and as this virus does spread to household members and social contacts, you will notice some of these conditions in your family and friends too.

    Most people people that comment here tend to have CFS, and often quite severe GAD, as their main concerns, so much of the discussion does revolve around this. Now, there are many causes of CFS and GAD, not just this virus; and in many cases, individuals will have more than one cause: for example, they may have this virus, plus a few nasty bacterial species in their bodies, plus possibly some environmental hazards in the home or workplace, such as toxic mold, organophosphates, carbon monoxide poisoning from faulty heating equipment (plus, as I have now learnt, bacteria in water-damaged buildings).

    There are also pre-exisitng medical conditions that an individual may have that might help precipitate CFS, conditions such as interstitial cystitis, IBS, kidney infections, and others.

    So in treating yout CFS and/or GAD, you will need to look into all possibilities, and try to remedy them where possible.

    So the dialog here often covers these possibilities and remedies, as they are important to all of us. Nevertheless, this website does have a prime focus on this particular new virus, as well as on CFS.

    The is a 6-point questionnaire here on this website, that can help find out whether you have the virus described on this website, or not. If you can answer yes to all 6 questions, then you very likely have it.

    If you cannot say yes to all 6, you still likely have some other virus, bacterium, protozoan, or environmental toxin (or a combination of these) causing your CFS, but just not this virus.

    Of course, in any case, even if you do not have this particular virus, you are still very welcome to chat on this website, in order to try to find your own answers to your CFS, with the help of everyone’s input and ideas. In fact, I like learning new things from people, and from their particular medical circumstances.

    – Hip

  214. I am pretty sure I have this virus that you guys are discussing on this website. It is great to know that there are people out there who are suffering like me and I can talk to.(I sucks you all have it too though)

    I think I’m still in the early stages as i have been experiencing symptoms very similar to this site for almost two months now. It started with the unusual sore throat that you all describe. I have had no nose blockage however, the mucus has been draining into the back of my throat, causing constant throat clearing. Is it common to see people without the nose blockage hip?

    My stomach aches most of the day, and I can always feel/hear it rumbling. I also have diarrhea most days. I have been reading lots of comments and people always complain about the stomach issues but I never hear anybody talk about diarrhea or loose stools. Is this indicative of anything?

    I have the white tongue you all describe and I have observed tonsil stones, although they have since disappeared. I struggle to maintain my workout regimen which was very intense before I came down with whatever this is.

    So initially I thought it was HIV, but the tests have proved otherwise. Thought it was mono but still no. I had severe anxiety, but that has almost disappeared after I got the negative HIV results.

    I have two roommates and they still show no signs or symptoms. I kissed a girl right before I got it, but she is perfectly healthy and has none of the symptoms I have. Does this sound like the chronic sore throat virus?

    Note: My throat is not usually sore at all, but some days I wake up and it is back and pretty uncomfortable. Is it common in the early stages, or would the sore throat be more persistent?

    Lastly thanks, Hip, this is a great resource and I am glad I came across it.

    REPLY: Hi Thompson

    This virus is quite easily spread by kissing, though so is Epstein-Barr virus (also known as the “kissing virus”), and EBV has similar symptoms, plus EBV can cause chronic diarrhea, whereas the virus described on this website does not usually cause chronic diarrhea (unless you have pre-existing IBS to go with it).

    EBV can easily be tested for by a simple blood test, but you say that you have been tested for mono, so if this is the case, we can rule out EBV. Also, the incubation period of EBV is 4 to 6 weeks, so you would not get symptoms the next day from kissing if it were EBV. The incubation period for the virus described on this website is in the range 8 to 24 hours. So if the girl did have it, the fact your symptoms appeared the next day is entirely consistent with its 8 to 24 hour incubation period.

    Around 2/3 of people with this virus get the chronic nasal/sinus congestion; around 1/3 get the chronic sore throat. So it is possible not to have these symptoms, yet still have the virus. Some people only have mild symptoms, like some fatigue, and don’t know they have this virus.

    Try taking the 6-point questionnaire here on this website, to see whether you have the virus described on this website or not.

    – Hip

  215. Oh yes….ice pick pain! I’ve had this for so very long! Sudden pain in the eye (which I had associated to my computer screen staring)

    Like I had mentioned previously, I was “diagnosed” a few weeks ago with a sinus infection, conjunctivitis, and ear otitis.

    Since then, several colleagues of mine have also been infected. After taking all my prescribed medication, IT DID NOTHING TO HELP!

    I do know that there are several types of meningitus…. Meningococcus (Neisseria meningitis), Pneumococcus (Streptococcus pneumoniae), group B Streptococcus (Streptococcus agalactiae) and E. coli (Eschericia coli).

    What scares me is that I have skin cyanosis, a bluish tinge caused by a lack of oxygen (I wrote this yesterday)

    stiff and sore neck, migrane (lasting over 3 weeks now) bulging fontanelle, and Intolerance to bright light and sounds.

    REPLY: Bulging fontanel, neck stiffness, cyanosis, impaired consciousness are symptoms of meningitis, as is intolerance to bright light. See here for symptoms of meningitis.

    Have these symptoms appeared just recently?

    Note that bacterial meningitis is generally much worse that viral meningitis. Bacterial meningitis if suspected should be treated with antibiotics, otherwise it can be very dangerous. Viral meningitis does not have to be treated, and there is not much you can do about it anyway.

    Bacterial meningitis often comes with red spots on the skin. Viral meningitis does not (though there may be some rash). Viral meningitis is more common than bacterial meningitis. Viral meningitis is rarely life threatening. Bacterial meningitis always needs immediate medical attention.

    You are taking antibiotics already, right?

    You can also get chronic meningitis, which lasts for a month or so. Here is some info on chronic meningitis.

    This Wikipedia article on cyanosis might help you figure out what is causing your cyanosis, KittyKat, in case it is not meningitis-related.

    – Hip


    I tend to answer the questions / comments people post just underneath the comment itself. So if you scroll back up on this page, you may find an answer. – Hip

  217. Kk so sorry, it sounds dreadfull. I have mild noise and light sensitvity too. Have you been tested for meningitis? I really feel for you a great deal.

  218. Hi Hip,

    The last time I wrote on this site late last year, I wasn’t sure if I had this virus. It has now been about 2 years since I’ve experienced a chronic sore throat that hasn’t gone away completely and I still have it. I am now sure that I have this virus because I’m also experiencing the eye, teeth and ear symptoms mentioned on this site. I am writing now because I am extremely fearful that this virus will cause me to have a heart attack, because I was diagnosed with mild myocarditis about four years ago and put on daily low dose aspirin. This was before I contracted this virus. I believe I contracted this virus in July 2008. Although people think that I am in my late thirties, I will actually be 55 in April. I was wondering if taking the aspirin gives me a better chance of avoiding a heart attack from this virus, or if there is something else I should do. I now take the grape seed extract and the bee propolis. I don’t know about the others on this site, but I’ve become very depressed about having this virus. I’ve been divorced for many years, but had hopes of establishing a meaningful relationship or even remarrying. However, now I am afraid to even kiss anyone for fear of spreading this virus, which is how I think I contracted it and I think the person purposely contaminated me. Do you know of anything that can be done to make it less likely to spread the virus through kissing? Thank you.

    REPLY: Hi Wjrf

    Yes, it does take around a couple of years before you really know whether you have this virus or not: you have to observe all its symptoms slowly manifest one by one.

    I am experimenting with a supplement protocol try that seems to drastically reduce the sore throat symptoms to almost non-existant, which may block the creation of viral particles in the throat, and thus prevent the passing of this virus to others. The protocol is based on megadose selenium, but it is not yet fully worked out, but it will be soon. “Hudson” on this website has also had some success with more conservative selenium doses. I will update everyone when I have got the protocol right. Selenium is also good for myocarditis prevention/treatment, I believe, so you may be killing two birds with one stone.

    In any case, I have given some estimates here of the amount of time it will take before this virus is commonplace in most of the human population: the rough estimate I came up with was that nearly everyone will have it by 2018. So no matter what we do, this virus is going to spread. This is not good news for the human species, but it might make people here feel less anxious regarding carrying the burden of having such a virus.

    My problem is that I have such high anhedonia, that I don’t even want a meaningful relationship! This virus really screws up your normal emotional apparatus, you mind malfunctions so much that you just don’t care about the things that are normally very important – like love, sex, relationships, friendships, etc. What I want is to want those things again. I want the normal human desires back. Anhedonia is the loss of all these desires and pleasures in life. This virus is big on creating anhedonia, unfortunately.

    – Hip

  219. Wjrf,

    Do you getbheart palipatations? I know I do and thats a new symptom for me. I’m finding it very very hard to deal with this illness. It was hard enough realising that my own health was plummeting out of control but now im waking up to the fact that its transmissable by mere casual contact.. Perhpas not whatever you have, but mine is. So im petrified about friends whove suddenly developed a ‘smokers cough’ or ‘asthma’ others with the rumbling in thier stomach and colitis.. Just about everyone i know has a symtpom that i have and get worse. Im just hating the thought of everyone i know and love getting iller and i dont know how to cope with thid mentally.. Its insanity provoking and of course no-one would believe me. I look back at my old workplace and there were so many there with symptoms too. People had commented that it was a sick building.

    Now i dont know whether to warn people so that there is awareness and investigation or whether ignorance is bliss. Avoid provoking hysteria or more likely, having people think I’ve totally lost the plot.

    Hip, was it you that said you infected 40 people? Did you point out to any of them that there was something contagious going around? I feel like im gonna go mad… Literally from the anxiety this is causing me.

    Great site by the way. You’ve done a great job setting this up and also finding treatments that mitigate symptoms for you. Has your condition stabilised. I continue to get worse every single day and thats terrifying too.

    REPLY: At the time, when the virus spread in the first year, I did not think this virus was that bad, so I did not say anything. Then, once it has spread to others around you, the cat is out of the bag, and there is nothing you can do. It may be best to say nothing, in order not to raise fears. On the other hand, perhaps you yourself would benefit from talking to others about it.

    Are you considering trying the protocols on the Treatments Page? You will be amazed at how much your anxieties will disappear, once you start them. The anxieties you have are hugely amplified by the abnormal brain chemistry this virus creates. Bring the brain chemistry back to normal, via the dietary supplements suggested, and much of the anxieties just vanish. That is a promise.

    By the way, heart palpitations are rarely problematic, and they often actually originate from inflammation in the hypothalamus (in the brain), which controls the heart rate.

    – Hip

  220. Page? You will be amazed at how much your anxieties will disappear, once you start them. The anxieties you have are hugely amplified by the abnormal brain chemistry this virus creates. Bring the brain chemistry back to normal, via the dietary supplements suggested, and much of the anxieties just vanish. That is a promise.

    Thx, look the anxiety is really a result of the fact that im worsening so quixkly and seeing others getting ill. Whatever form of this i have is very strong and progressing quickly. At first dealing with my own illness/ mortality was hard enough but to know that my loved ones are becoming sick too and that its all untreatable is totally unbearable. How could anyone not be anxious. But I will certainly try the supplements asap. Im feeling pretty alone keeping this to myself but dont want to burden others if there is no point in testing?? Still i dont know how much longer i can bear it all. If anyone wants to vent to/ with me and discuss treatments please contact me at Jodana@hushmail.com I really need support.

    REPLY: Nobody is going to deny that you have very real reasons to feel anxiety. It is hard to quantify someone else’s situation and suffering, but I have been in a similar situation myself, with the same fears and concerns.

    What I am trying to do is to calm your fears, both through words, and through treatment.

    If it is the same virus you have, then some of your concerns are not really warranted. For example, it is only around 1 in 10 people that get get hit badly by this virus, in the way you have (and I have). The other 9 out of 10 people who catch this virus tend to end up with only mild symptoms – they all are healthy enough to carry on with their jobs, and their lives. So most of your family/friends will be relatively fine when they catch this virus.

    And try to understand that, even though your anxieties are legitimate, your brain inflammation is making these anxieties MUCH more intense than they would normally be. The brain inflammation can turn up the intensity in your anxiety “circuits”, so that everything seems worse than it is. Does that make sense?

    The anti-inflammatory protocols 1 and 2 have been tried by several people here, and they do work for this virus. You will start to feel better within 24 hours.

    I am also reading up on bacterial contamination in water-damaged buildings, but due to a lot of fatigue in the last few days, it is slow reading.

    – Hip

  221. Thanks Hip! I still desire a meaningful relationship and I credit that to God for giving us you, this site and your treatment recommendations. Prior to finding this site, I was at a stand still because I had no clue what I was experiencing. Now that I know, I have a direction to go toward and a virus to beat, and a lot of people helping with this goal. I pray every day that our bodies build up a tolerance against this virus and allow us to live long happy lives without depression and the fear of heart attacks. I will try the selenium in Hudson’s doses until you determine the protocol. I’m also going to add skull cap to my treatment. C, I did have palpitations prior to contracting this virus and while I was getting an echocardiogram, I had a palputation and my provider said it had nothing to do with my heart and did not register on the test. He said people often mistake chest muscle contractions and indigestion for palputations of the heart and they are not…so you’re probably ok in that area. Hip, I will pray that you fight the anhedonia and gain the human desires back by doing all the things that make you happy. You are helping all of us when the CDC won’t and for that I am grateful and want you to be happy! God Bless!!

    REPLY: Thanks for the positive words, though remember that there are many online resources for CFS. It is worth reading what other protocols people are using for treating their CFS, and perhaps trying these out. This site will always focus on this particular virus; nevertheless, treatments that have proven generally beneficial for CFS will likely work for us too.

    – Hip

  222. Hm,

    makes me sad that so many people got the disease too. Maybe sounds strange, but some of music did and still makes me feel better. This song is quite hitting altough not about CFS but so simmiliar:

  223. I have so many symptoms described on this site. My feet have been so cold for the past few days accompanied by joint aches and pains. It is so weird!!!! My symptoms really correspond to those listed on the site, but the time period is off as I have only had the sore throat for two months. I can’t tell if I am having the mental changes or not. Was this very obvious to you hip, or was it vague and take awhile to realize that you were thinking differently?

    REPLY: If you get the mental state changes, they are strong, so there is no chance of not noticing them. Not everyone gets them: there are some people who only become a little more fatigued, perhaps a little more irritable, but nothing more than that. I was fine for the first two months with the virus, and had only physical symptoms, but then powerful mental state changes suddenly hit me (extreme anxiety, etc). I suspect that these mental changes appear when the virus reaches your sinuses (as the sinuses lie very close tot the brain, and I suspect that an infection and inflammation in the sinuses will perturb brain function – but this is just a guess).

    – Hip

  224. Thanks Hip, this is a great service you provide. What a mysterious/scary virus this is. whatever I have, it has been for two months now, and it is just the reoccurring sore throat (Which is not even noticeable most days) the post nasal drip, diarrhea and loose stools and now cold feet/hands. I know I have already asked you but of your group of thirty individuals, was the time period of the symptoms described on your sight reasonable consistent?

    Thanks again Hip, I hope I’m not too annoying, I just feel a bit helpless by now

    REPLY: Hi Thompson.

    There are variations in the early stages. If the infection prodrome begins with a stomach upset and vomiting, the sore throat and/or nasal congestion may appear many weeks later, as the virus slowly spreads. What is generally consistent is the appearance of the late symptoms: receding gums first noticed at around 4 months, the fine skin wrinkles and weak legs and pelvic girdle at the 12 to 18 month period, and the heliotrope rash (red chest area) after about 2 or 3 years.

    You may like to read the CLINICAL SIGNS AND SYMPTOMS SUMMARY.

    Note that you should not stop searching the Internet for other possible causes for your symptoms. The are at least a dozen different viruses and bacteria that may cause chronic fatigue syndrome (most are discussed on the above page of this website). So just because you have reasonable match of symptoms to the virus described on this website, don’t stop pursuing other possibilities, either in your own research, or with the help of your doctors.

    – Hip

  225. Seem to have had a runny nose since I went to Australia in 2002 -2003. At that time I had chronic diarhea and very runny nose. I can not remember if I had a sore throat but we were all sick at one time with what I thought was the flu. When we returned we got a dog which I have blamed along with and my alergies (pollen and mould) for my runny nose and congestion ever since. I suppose that my mood has also deteriorated, although I have blamed that on raising a family, job stress etc. I suppose I was at one time the life of the party but now I must force myself to go. I have had heart palpatations that began 3 years ago and sometimes wake in the middle of the night with my heart racing. Both of these symptoms my Doc told me were common to people 53. I have had gout symptoms and have had on occasion in the past but much more frequently now chronic leg fatigue in calves, thighs and wobbley hips. I developed a numb tongue or burning mouth syndrome last summer and this winter have all of the chronic throat symptoms that you describe which do not seem to go away but rotate around and up and down. I am going for a throat scope in mid April. Hope they find nothing. Ottawa, Canada

  226. Hi Hip ~

    Iv been dealing with this virus about 8 months already. Im not gonna list all of the symptoms out because in the article u already listed it all out. The one symptom that i really looking closely at was the wrinkle thing..it started out like a red dot/pinkish maybe then it turn brown/dark after its heal. Well i went to the doctor today asking him to test me but he refused to do so because he said its all in my head..well i didnt want to argue with him so i just sat there and listen to his theory about depression/anxiety and finally wrote me a refferal to a spychatrist ( sorry i forgot how to spell that word). Now i dont know what to do now, should i go see spychatrist ? Well, Hip, do u take any medication for fatique and headaches and stuff? Anything that helps you so far? thank you

    REPLY: Hi Tran

    Please try the medications on the Treatments Page. These will help.

    – Hip

  227. Hi Hip,

    I just thought of this today. Have you or anyone you know tried any of the antiviral medications, such as Ribavirin, Acyclovir, Ganciclovir, or any others to treat this virus? I’m not familiar with any of the antivirual medications. I just ran a search on the computer for antiviral medications. Could any of these be of some help? Thanks,

    REPLY: I don’t think this virus is a herpesvirus, so antivirals like acyclovir and ganciclovir that target herpesviruses such as EBV, CMV and HSV are not going to help much – unless of course you have a co-infection with a herpesvirus as well. I tried acyclovir and saw no benefits.

    My hypothesis is that this virus as an enterovirus like coxsackievirus B or echovirus. Ribavirin is worth trying, since it has efficacy against enteroviruses. I have not tried this myself yet.

    You are generally better of trying immunomodulators, however, like oxymatrine (see above web page for more info) for enterovirus.

    – Hip

  228. Thanks Hip and Floridafam. I feel I’m benefiting from taking the grape seed extract and the bee propolis and will order some chinese skullcap over the computer tonight. However, I still have the sore throat (for the last two years) and it has never fully gone away, so I thnk I will also try Ribavirin. I will post my results…hopefully something promising.

    REPLY: Good stuff, wjrf. Nice to see this pro-active attitude, trying different things, to see which will provide benefit.

    – Hip

  229. I credit your site for my proactive measures Hip. I wasn’t sure what type of virus I had to fight prior to this site. Any way, I looked further into the Ribavirin and decided against it. As I mentioned on this site, I was diagnosed with mild myocarditis and Ribavirin might have a negative impact on me. Below is the usage warning I found, just in case some on this site is considering it as well.

    WARNING: RISK OF SERIOUS DISORDERS AND Ribavirin-ASSOCIATED EFFECTS. Ribavirin monotherapy is not effective for the treatment of chronic hepatitis C virus infection and should not be used alone for this indication.

    The primary clinical toxicity of Ribavirin is hemolytic anemia. The anemia associated with Ribavirin therapy may result in worsening of cardiac disease and lead to fatal and nonfatal myocardial infarctions. Patients with a history of significant or unstable cardiac disease should not be treated with Ribavirin [see Warnings and Precautions (5.2), Adverse Reactions (6.1), and Dosage and Administration (2.3)].

    I did, however, order the Chinese Skullcap , which had positive reviews for our condition, also Zyflamend and some more Grape Seed Extract. I feel really good now and I think it’s the effects of the Grape Seed and Propolis, so I’m looking forward to adding the supplements I orders in an effort to get rid of this sore throat…God speed ahead! Thanks.

  230. I credit your site for my proactive measures Hip. I wasn’t sure what type of virus I had to fight prior to this site. Any way, I looked further into the Ribavirin and decided against it. As I mentioned on this site, I was diagnosed with mild myocarditis and Ribavirin might have a negative impact on me. Below is the usage warning I found, just in case someone on this site is considering it as well.

    WARNING: RISK OF SERIOUS DISORDERS AND Ribavirin-ASSOCIATED EFFECTS. Ribavirin monotherapy is not effective for the treatment of chronic hepatitis C virus infection and should not be used alone for this indication.

    The primary clinical toxicity of Ribavirin is hemolytic anemia. The anemia associated with Ribavirin therapy may result in worsening of cardiac disease and lead to fatal and nonfatal myocardial infarctions. Patients with a history of significant or unstable cardiac disease should not be treated with Ribavirin [see Warnings and Precautions (5.2), Adverse Reactions (6.1), and Dosage and Administration (2.3)].

    I did, however, order the Chinese Skullcap , which had positive reviews for our condition, also Zyflamend and some more Grape Seed Extract. I feel really good now and I think it’s the effects of the Grape Seed and Propolis, so I’m looking forward to adding the supplements I orders in an effort to get rid of this sore throat…God speed ahead! Thanks.

  231. Oops, I must have hit the “post comment” button twice, my comment is posted two times…but that might be a good omen! LOL

  232. I have been feeling most of the symptoms listed above, and am glad to know i’m not alone. Recently had a tonsillectomy to solve my recurrent sore throat and tonsillitis, which has worked very well. The mental effects of depression and anxiety have been the worst lately. I stumbled upon this site awhile ago and didn’t think much of it, I thought I was over analyzing the situation, but doctor after doctor have told me nothing is wrong with me when I know there is something wrong. Has anyone experienced effects to the eyes, more specifically widening of the eyes and a blank stare? I have also found that I am sensitive to tobacco, I never used to be, this tends to cause lots of my eye problems. I pray to god that there is a cure for this, not only for myself but for all of you that suffer from this same issue. Stay strong.

    REPLY: Hi John. Welcome to the site.

    If by a “blank stare” you mean the lost of the normal “sparkle” in the eyes (the loss of the smiling “spirit” and conscious intelligence behind the human expression), then yes, this is a definite symptom that I have most definitely experienced. The eyes now reflect a certain deadness, rather than an alive conscious being.

    I am not sure what you mean by widening of the eyes – can you elaborate.

    Burred vision is another symptom (this is probably caused by some optic nerve inflammation or damage – the optic nerve runs right past the sinus cavities – which are inflamed).

    – Hip

  233. Well I went to an ENT a week ago. Even though they didn’t diagnose me, I got a prescription of augmentin. I was skeptical because I thought I had a virus… likely the one described on this site. Much to my surprise, the augmentin has completely taken away my sore throat. The post nasal drip is almost gone as well but it remains to linger. The mucus I spit out promptly changed from yellow/green to clear within three days of my course of antibiotics. My prescription ends tomorrow and I am worried that whatever I have had will soon return with a vengeance. Is it possible for antibiotics to calm down the symptoms of this virus while actually on the course, or is it safe to say that what I have is bacterial as opposed to what is described on this site? Have you heard of anything like this hip?

    REPLY: It could be that what you have is bacterial. It could also be that you have a viral infection, with a bacterial co-infection, and the amoxicillin is taking care of the latter. See how it goes over the next few days.

    – Hip

  234. thompson,

    you are probabbly right that sore throat will return soon after completion of ATB course. Moreover ATB will gradually become unnefective. This makes more clear that virus is some kind of bacteria actually.

  235. I used to have asthma as a child, I am now 22 and I haven’t had a bout in years. I am also allergic to penicillin, and have seasonal pollen allergies. I picked up some Propolis capsules today and am now cautious of taking them because i’m afraid I will have an adverse reaction to them, given that it says on the side of the bottle that an allergic reaction could occur if sensitive to bee products. I can eat honey, I haven’t had problems with that before. Are my concerns warranted? What do you guys think, should I take them?

  236. Does anybody with this condition get the sensation of a lump in the throat? that is basically my only symptom anymore.

  237. i cant beleave that they are still trying to tell some of you that this is in your head. personaly i fliped after hearing that for the tenth time 50 grand later, what there doing is trying to make money off of you do go to the doctors its a waste of time i had a infectious disease doctor tell me that theres a new retro viru / std going arround and theres nothing they can do thats why they tell you you dont have anyhting be cause they cant do anything doctors ARE BISSNESS MEN IN THIS COUNTRY i no people tht have died from cancer who they told was in there head and didnt show up on any test until it did it was to late in extream pain and they wouldnt do shit they think were all drug addicts or skitsofrinyacts if thats how you spell it oh and just a warning ive had no choice but to try the phyc point of view they told me i was delusional so the put me on anti physichotics and i almost died my theory was i have a lot of toxins in my body from this which all infections cause and these types of meds are very toxic so i think i had some type of toxic shock syndrome i told them i had chemical sensativety but no im crazy and delusional ya im a delusional crazy hypochondreack that they had to call 911 for hahahahah fuck them alllllllllllllllll they wont do shit fuck all white coat wearing fucks

  238. @ unk

    ur right unk,here in the uk its the same and i feel as though ill be heading in an ambulance too,and now ive got collapsed discs in my spine that are from so called wear and tear after doing nothing but sitting around and sleeping for the past 4 years,my lung capacity is declining,and my neck/throat feels verry swollen now,still theyre fobbing me off,i went to the accident and emergency dept,and the doctor there said yes i can see u look very ill,but theres nothing we can do here for you,i said so ill probably be coming back here in an ambulance when i get worse,he said maybe yeah

    cheeky twat,honestly if i wasnt this ill id have seriously gone to town on him,what on earth they are getting payed for is more of a mystery than this ilness.i also was branded a hypachondriact but it was proven i had a problem when i had a small operation to remove a lesion from my throat.what did they do when you were took to the hospital unk?are u feelin better now?

  239. also they couldnt or didnt try hard enough to identify what the lesion was caused by,he seemed so sure it was hpv,but apparently it wasnt,only one test besides checking for cancer was done pcr hpv,no other testing they certainly dont try too hard do they.daveyboy.

  240. John, if eating honey doesn’t have an adverse affect on you, the bee propolis probably won’t either. However, you might want to try one over the weekend or on a day you don’t have much activity until you know for sure. The bee propolis and grape seed abstract have helped me. My Skullcap and Zyflamend came today and I am going to add them to my regimen this weekend, just in case they have some ill affect on me. I will let you all know if they work for me. Best of luck to you!

  241. Hi, just wanted to say that I’ve had what I think is/ or something very similar to this virus for over 4 years. I won’t go into a long list of my symptoms, apart from to say Ive everything on the list and more. Ive been reading your site for a few months now and at least I dont feel so alone now. Thank you, youve been a life saver. I’d already been taking the propolis, then I added the grape seed extract as you suggest. It has helped a great deal. I’m trying the colostrum now. Have you any suggestions to help the stomach problems caused by this virus. I wake up every morning with agonizing trapped wind type pain and nothing seems to help. Any suggestions would be welcome. Again thank you all. :o)

    REPLY: Hi Catherine

    I have noticed that when I tale selenium (which has an antiviral action), I get less wind, so you could try taking 200 mcg of selenium, twice a day, and see how that goes. You might also want to try the Saccharomyces boulardii probiotic (the Jarrow brand is good), as this increases antiviral IgA antibodies in the gut, and I think will also help with wind.

    I’d be interested in hearing about your “extra” symptoms that are not on the list here.

    – Hip

  242. Hi Hip, thanks for the reply, will try the supplements you suggest and let you know how I get on. Id been taking some probiotics but obviously not the right ones.

    My symptoms are: Weakness to illness, throat mucus, migraines, intestional gas, constipation, dry skin and hair, sore throat, heavy menses, lethargy, brain fog, odd moles, muscle and joint aches, sinus problems, dizzy spells, poor memory, lack of focus, lack of sex drive, weight gain, lack of motivation, odd skin wrinkles on hands, deterioration of gums and teeth, excessive tiredness, lower back pain, loss of hair, dark eye circles, cold feet, skin crawling feeling, susceptable to cold, nerve like pain in uretha(not uti), livedo, lesions on tongue, small watery blisters (stopped having after first year), excessive menses, galactorrhea, dry eyes, deterioration in eye sight. neck pain, constant headaches,blood tests show slightly low iron count, slightly elevated cholestrol, slightly high inflammation thoughout the body.

    I feel that a lot of my ‘other’ symptoms could be caused by a hormone imbalance. They only started after I had this sore throat like virus, so I wondering if it causes hormone problems because it seems to affect glands thoughout the body. A lot of the symptoms are very similar to Hypothyroid, could it be that it causes problems with the hypothalmus? Ive tested negative for hypothyroid but I believe the blood tests in the UK are very vague. I only mention this because after contracting this virus my daughter became hyperthyroid, and I exhibit signs of hypothyroid.

    Again, thank you :o)

    REPLY: In chronic fatigue syndrome (which is a possible diagnosis for the symptoms your virus created), the hypothalamus is affected, and this causes some hormonal imbalance. You can experiment with taking the hormone supplement pregnenolone (say 20 mg a day), as this often helps. I found pregnenolone has an anti-depressant effect, and also creates a little more emotional robustness in the mind. You can buy pregnenolone in a vitamin store. Pregnenolone is also anti-inflammatory, and you can safely take it long-term.

    Some people in my social group of “infectees” did have symptoms of lower back pain, and some thyroid problems, but these were rare, so I did not list them on this website (as I only generally include symptoms in the list when at least two or more people with this virus have manifested them, to avoid including symptoms that may be nothing to do with this virus).

    CFS symptoms are very similar to hypothyroid symptoms – so much so, that before a doctor can definitively say you have CFS, he should test for hypothyroid, just to rule that possibility out. I am not to sure about the finer details of testing for hypothyroidism; I know that there can borderline cases.

    Have a look at the symptoms for Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, which is inflammation in the thyroid gland.

    Hashimoto’s thyroiditis often results in hypothyroidism, with bouts of hyperthyroidism, and can cause weight gain, depression, mania, sensitivity to heat and cold, paresthesia, fatigue, panic attacks, bradycardia, tachycardia, high cholesterol, reactive hypoglycemia, constipation, migraines, muscle weakness, cramps, memory loss, infertility and hair loss.

    It has been speculated that the viruses enterovirus, HSV, EBV, parvovirus B19, rubella virus and mumps virus may be linked to Hashimoto’s thyroiditis. Though this is all purely in the research stage, so it is not something that a doctor will know about in general. Reference: 1. I just mention this as the virus described on this website is, I suspect, an enterovirus, and perhaps it can affect the thyroid.

    Constant headaches may be caused by blocked, inflamed or infected sinuses, and this virus definitely causes sinus inflammation. You may want to try nasal irrigation to try to clear them (look on youTube for nasal irrigation instructions; it is also called yoga neti).

    One person on this blog, “Asklepius”, who appears to have the same virus, developed migraines from it.

    Note that there are quite a few viruses and bacteria that are linked to CFS. You may also want to find a private doctor to test you for the common viruses linked to chronic fatigue syndrome, such as Epstein-Barr virus, HHV-6 and parvovirus B19, if only just to rule these out. What you have does sound like the virus described on this website.


    With bacterial probiotics, I have noticed you have to take quite of a lot (up to 6 capsules a day) of a good brand (Jarro-Dophilus, for example) to get the anti-inflammatory and anti-anxiety benefits. Similarly for the friendly yeast probiotic Saccharomyces boulardii (3 to 6 capsules a day). You don’t have to take that high dose all the time (as it can be expensive). I tend to use a lower maintenance dose, but as soon as I feel a bad patch coming, I increase the dosage. If you only buy one probiotic, try the Saccharomyces boulardii yeast, as I think this is more powerful than regular bacterial probiotics.

    Let me know if you have any further questions, Catherine.

    – Hip

  243. Catherine, yes my hormones have gone crazy at same time as getting this virus. I have most if not all symptoms on this site. I have hashimotos and possibly addisons.

    Was also wondering if chemical sensitivities are common with this condition?


    REPLY: Hi C

    Did you get Hashimoto’s after getting this virus, or was it there in some form before?

    I have not noticed any increased chemical sensitivities or allergies in myself or others with this virus, but certainly chemical sensitivities do occur more frequently in CFS.

    One possibility is that, due to the viral infection you have, you are becoming increasingly allergic to chemicals. This may explain your perception that “objects becoming contaminated”. In fact, it may be that as your sensitivity increases, the dust, fire retardants, glues, etc found in ordinary household objects are causing more and more allergic responses, thereby giving your the sense that the “objects are becoming contaminated”. So your perceptions are real, but the reason my be simply increased chemical sensitivity, rather than the objects getting mold/mycobacterial contamination. But this is just guess; and your original interpretation could be right also.

    You can try Epicor (Saccharomyces cerevisiae – baker’s yeast) as a treatment for chemical sensitivities. I read just now that high dose vitamin C (say 4 grams 3 times a day) can be very helpful for chemical sensitivities. Vitamin C is also a potent antihistamine.

    – Hip

  244. So for those who get the sore throat would you say it is very persistent and consistent in the first few year? Or does it vary in intensity and recurrent?

  245. The irony at the mention of CFS, as I have been told my overall symptoms are grouped into that category by my physician on the first of April. Diagnosis = CFS. “Irony”

    Some treatment please, Hip?

    REPLY: See TP – Hip

  246. My sore throat has been persistent for 2.5 years. Usually it is felt mildly at the end of the day and not at all in the mornings. Eating some rough textured foods causes more inflammation and not sticking to a healthy diet, e.g. staying away from sugar, causes more problems. It is very important to follow many of Hip’s treatment suggestions and keep your mouth clean, flossed, etc.

  247. Thanks Bastante, yeah I was just curious because the last few months I have gone some weeks where the throat was pretty sore but other times it is not even noticeable for weeks at a time.

  248. My sore throat is persistent has been for the past 4 years, although it can vary in intensity throughout the day :o(

  249. To Thompson, I suffer from the lump in the throat sensation. It comes and goes, sometimes it feels like I have lost the ability to swallow (horrible!!).

  250. long time no see. I guess the prebiotics and probiotics really works fine. At least during the past several months, I have never experienced the horrible headache and fatigue myself. Another important issue is that doing exercise everyday really helps you greatly. Maybe at first several times you will feel really tired and bad,but I am sure it can improve your immune system and this may kill a large number of those viruses.

    Besides, I am quite sure this virus has NOTHING to do with HIV. It may be some interovirus but it is definitely not HIV. DO NOT try any anti-HIV drugs because it will not help you for the long term.

    Hope everyone goes back to your normal life and get better!

  251. Hi Hip, did your sore throat subside intermittently or is it still a constant agony for you? I’m hoping to at least get rid of the annoying sore throat so I can at least start back enjoying my food. At this point, I hate to eat. I’m trying everything. I added the Chinese Skullcap, Zyflamend and Selenium this weekend to my grape seed extract and propolis regime. I think I will also add Colostrum. I look it up and it had good reviews. I also checked for adverse interactions for all the herbs I’m taking and none of them interact with each other, so I think it will be ok to take them all. I’m so desperate to get rid of this agonizing sore throat that I will try any and everything. that won’t do me in. ..take care all!

    REPLY: The only thing that gets rid of my sore throat with near 100% efficiently is very high dose selenium, in the form of sodium selenite. Twin Labs sell sodium selenite. I took 2,000 mcg of selenium in the form of sodium selenite before bed (on an empty stomach), and this eliminated my sore throat for 24 hours. Note that the maximum recommended daily amount for selenium is 800 mcg, so this high dose is considered an experimental treatment.

    I have read that 2,000 mcg will not cause any harm, certainly not for a few weeks, and probably not even after a year, but do this at your own risk. If you do want to experiment, you might want to start with say 800 mcg a day to begin with, an ramp up slowly to higher levels. Or if you want to play safe, don’t go above 1,000 mcg a day. People do take sodium selenite for cancer treatment at doses as high as 5,000 mcg a day for many months.

    It would appear that the sodium selenite form of selenium has a specific antiviral effect against coxsackievirus B, which I think may be our virus. See this study here. Note that this study found that other forms of selenium (like sodium selenATE and selenomethionine) did not have much antiviral effect on coxsackievirus B. So you want the selenITE form.

    It is better to take high dose sodium selenite on an empty stomach, away from meals, not only because food reduces sodium selenite absorption in the gut, but also because selenite can react with any thiols in the food, and create a slightly toxic by-product. Nothing too worrying, but best to try to avoid if you can. Avoid orange juice too when taking selenite, as OJ contains thiols.

    Here are the possible side effects of high dose selenium: Chronic selenosis (doses greater than 1,000 mcg/day): Muscle weakness, fatigue, peripheral neuropathy, dermatitis, nail and hair changes/loss, garlic breath/body odor, irritability, growth retardation, hepatic necrosis

    The only side effect I got from taking 2,000 mcg of sodium selenite was an increase in irritability levels. I am not sure why this is. If anyone has any suggestions on why, and how to remedy this, I’d like to hear them.

    – Hip

  252. Hello all! Does anyone have any thoughts on moderate sun exposure with fungal and perhaps viral infections on skin. I have some small flaky lesions on arm that seem to improve with sun. We all know that UV rays are bad in excess, but it would seem to me my fungal/viral infections on skin improve with moderate tanning. Any thoughts?

  253. I don’t know if this is the same things. But I started getting bad sore throats a little over a month ago. And now it. Seems despite decongestants and antibiotics my throat and runny nose won’t seem to go away. As time has progressed I have felt more tired and feel I have no energy at all. I haven’t been communicating with much anyone and I have noticed I’ve been a little moodier than normal. My teeth are ok as far as I’ve noticed. But I read through the list of symptoms and a lot of them fit. I’m kinda worried now. Please keep me updated. Thank you.

  254. I hadn’t been back on the site for a few weeks now….I’ve barely had any energy to do anything at all!

    So…i’ll make this post short….

    I had coughed for weeks after my last post, and believe to have broken a rib or two from the cough.

    Abdominal swelling, more on the right side of my body. And abdominal stiffness….

    I’m beginning to think I might have Liver Cirrhosis. I really should have been careful with all the allergy medication I had been taking, for my allergic reactions….

    My face is very “yellowish” with dark blotches on my cheeks…just to name one of the many symptoms I have.

    Awaiting news in a few weeks….can’t wait to finally see my doctor!! Hopefully, I’ll make it to then…..

    Sending everyone positive thoughts :)


  255. Well i have the peeling skin but its not constant.. Anyone else? Best wishes for you kk, sorry to hear you are doing it so rough.

  256. Hip, have or do you or anyone else with this virus drink any of the “so called” miracle juices such as Nona juice or Mangosteen juice? These are supposed to do miraculous things for the body. I used to drink Mangosteen years ago, prior to contracting this virus, and I felt better all over, especially in my knees because I have arthritis in them. I stopped drinking the juice because it became a $200 a month expense because I had autoship. If no one has tried it for this virus, I think I will be the guinea pig and see how Mangosteen works for this virus. If it helps any, especailly with the sore throat, that $200 a month for the juice is going back into my budget…it will be well worth it. I will let everyone know how it works for me. If anyone has tried it, please comment…God speed ahead!

  257. I just found this site while doing a search for chronic sore throat. I have had one for like 4 months now. At first I thought it was the flu but after such a long time I don’t think so anymore. I read some of the comments and it sounds futile going to a doctor and having a bunch of tests done. Is there no cure for this? Is it just going to get just worse from here? It’s a bit depressing…

  258. Hi Thompson,

    Hip can verify this, but I think the mucus associated with this virus tends to be white or clear…mine is. Usually, if the mucus is green or streaked with blood, there might be a bacterial infection associated with your condition. But even if there is a bacterial infection causing the mucus color to be anything other than white or clear, you could still have this virus along with the bacterial infection. Antibiotics might clear the bacterial infection, but it won’t clear the virus discussed on this site. Hip listed a lot of symptoms associated with this virus, and I think only time will tell if you have it. It took me two years to know for sure that there is a 99% chance that this is my virus because I now have most of the symptoms Hip has listed on this site. The only way this is not my virus is that there is another one we don’t know about that is causing the same symptoms. Pray that you don’t have the chronic sore throat virus, because according to the information on this site, it’s chronically active in the body and doesn’t go dormant into the central nervous system for any amount of time like so many of the other viruses humans catch. The treatments listed on this site do help a lot and I’m still experimenting with things I know have help my body feel better in the past. I’m still praying that our bodies will build a tolerance to this virus and/or something that we take as treatment will send it into the central nervous system to stay there dormant, so I can get rid of this agonizing sore throat I’ve had for a little over two years. Take care all.

  259. @wjrf

    Thanks for the reply I fond it very helpful. And yeah I really hope I don’t have this virus and I wish that nobody would ever get this as the information on this website is quite scary. but yeah, I’ve have not been 100% for 2 and a half months now. It started with the sore throat but that went away after a few weeks and since then it has been recurrent, most of the time i cant feel it. I have had chronic post nasal drip since then and when I clear my throat the mucus tends to be yellow. so In that sense it sounds like this sites virus. On the other hand, I don’t feell as though I have experienced the mood changes(yet). I have also had a lot of diarrhea since the initial sore throat and I hear that this virus does not cause that. It’s all up in the air right now.

  260. OMG I just read this and I have evry symptom. About 6 weeks ago I came down with a horrible flu I thought nut was tested at the hospital and they said it was not a flu. I have a chronich sore throat and will be seeing a Dr tomorrow!

  261. Its been awhile since I have been on since I have been doing pretty well. I havent kept up with posts and it would take awhile for me to catch up so sorry if this has already been mentioned. Oleuropein! Oleuropein! Oleuropein! I cant tell you how much this has helped. Make sure you get standardized Olive Leaf Caps (natures way is 12% Oleuropein. Try it especially if you are like me who suffered from post viral syndrome.

    REPLY: HI Msl. Given that oleuropein works for EBV, it might be that you have a EBV problem or co-infection. Have you ever had your EBV titers tested? If positive and high, you might also consider trying Valtrex (valacyclovir) which is a prodrug for acyclovir (it turns into acyclovir in the body). Valtrex is an anti-EBV drug.

    – Hip

  262. I have been of the impression that this disease was not bacterial because when I first contracted this disease they gave me some antibiotics (z-pack) and the disease did not go away. However, after further research, I am finding that there are many bacterial diseases that require more extensive antibiotic treatments, such as Hansen’s disease. Have any of you considered this, since this disease is transmitted orally, is not extremely infectious, and causes some receding of some tissues? It is hard for me to even consider this, but since I have considered almost everything and this is something my doctor’s have not even mentioned, I thought I was worth a question.

    REPLY: It is certainly true that bacteria can cause CFS, Chlamydia pneumoniae being a common one that you might want to test for. And many bacteria are not eliminated by antibiotics. I personal think that CFS, even in a given individual, consists of more than one infection going on at the same time.

    – Hip

  263. Hi Hip, please send me the mailout you just sent out..thanks

    REPLY: I have just sent it now (not sure why you did not get it the first time; probably something I screwed up!).

    If anyone else has not got the new mailout, let me know.

    Note also that there was a slight error on this new mailout: I meant to say that 100 grams of citrulline malate will last you for two weeks, not a month as I wrote.

    – Hip

  264. Great site! Thanks for the link on this page:


    My web site name/domain has changed from HowToCure.ME/Health-Spy.com to medicalinsider.com. Please update your link:

    ‘How to Cure ME – BlackSpy’s Excellent CFS/ME Resource’

    Thank you for your support and keep up the good work! Please feel free to delete this comment. Best, Pat

    REPLY: I have updated the link to your site as:

    Medical Insider – BlackSpy’s Excellent CFS/ME Resource

    I have very much enjoyed reading your website.

    – Hip

  265. Hey thanks Hip, and thanks for your kind words/link. You can still call me BlackSpy if you want, I dispensed with the name and use my real name now. :-) I think I got fed up with the whole spy theme hehe…I hope you find the interim format clearer, hopefully I will redesign it from scratch in the next 12 months or so. Wishing you all the best. /Pat

  266. food grade hydrogen peroxide treatment

    REPLY: A few people here have tried this, and it has no effect on this virus, unfortunately. – Hip

  267. couple of things they dont mention. If you take any drugs you got to consult a professional. Doses for children should be much lighter than what they describe if you take it oraly.

  268. Hi every one

    I have notice is disease recently and fear of contracted it. I am just wondering if anyone has fully excluded Lyme disease. i have been on Lyme forums recently seems to me, people with lyme often experience these kinda symptoms for years before proper diagnose by a lyme specialist and many ppl having Lyme for years(through there support group of decades) know for sure that it is contiguous and can be spread like a std. which makes me think the webmaster discards Lyme disease tooo casually.

    REPLY: Hi

    I have changed your online name from “E” to “E2″, as there is already an E here, and it would cause confusion. I hope that is OK.

    As I understand it, the bacteria that cause Lyme disease – namely Borrelia burgdorferi, afzelii and garinii – are not thought to be transmitted person-to-person, except in that there have been occasional anecdotal accounts of these bacteria spreading sexually. So at best, these bacteria are very minimally contagious, and in any case, the anecdotes suggest that it requires sexual contact to transmit. Correct me I am wrong on this, or if you have some updated info.

    By contrast, the pathogen I describe on this site passes relatively easily from person-to-person by kissing, and fairly easily just by ordinary household and workplace contact.

    Also, the incubation periods are quite different: often many weeks for Borrelia burgdorferi; and less than 24 hours for the virus described on this website.

    There are some other types of spirochete bacteria that do pass person-to-person, such as Borrelia recurrentis, which causes relapsing fever. But the symptoms of relapsing fever are not like the symptoms of this virus.

    – Hip

  269. thanks hip for making the reply, I know I am really new to this, but to my understanding usually untreated Bactria infection will cause long and persistent symptoms. but virus usually does not cause long lasting symptoms rather recurrent ones.

    REPLY: There are may viruses that can cause long lasting symptoms. HIV is one, as it HTLV. There is growing evidence that chronic low-level enterovirus (like coxsackievirus B or echovirus) may be the cause of many cases of CFS. Coxsackievirus B is also linked to diabetes. A lot of researchers believe that chronic low-level Epstein-Barr virus may be the cause of multiple sclerosis. Parvovirus B19 has been linked to lupus. And there many more examples.

    – Hip

  270. Here google this: “mysterious aids-like disease”. It’s gotten much more attention this year (that is what we all have, i’m absolutely sure 100%). By the way, this site is now or has been monitored by government officials. :D

    Take care, God bless!

  271. Anyone have experence with using Paxil for anxiety while ill with virus? I see that SSRI’s can have a negative effect on adrenal glands and am concerned as I ave started taking and thought I felt better am noticing some fatigue issues.

    REPLY: You can try, but be careful. As has been mentioned in this website, I had extremely bad experiences with taking SSRI drugs: within an hour or so of taking just one low dose 10 mg citalopram tablet, I experienced an intense increase in depression, and intense suicidal ideation. The intense suicidal ideation was so bad, I actually decided there and then that this was the only option. Then, the next day, the effects of this drug wore off, and I was back to normal.

    Being scientific (and a sucker for punishment), I repeated this dose of one 10 mg tablet a few months later, and got the same results.

    SSRIs are known to cause increases in depression, and create intense suicidal ideation, in certain people. They have been statistically linked to precipitating suicide, and, having experienced for myself just how powerfully SSRI drugs can generate suicidal ideation in the minds of some people, I am not surprised that a certain subset of people do kill themselves while taking SSRI drugs.

    And I was not the only person on this blog to experience this intense increase in depression / suicidal ideation side effect from SSRIs. Nobody knows why SSRIs do have this very bad reaction in a certain subset of people; I wonder whether SSRIs react badly in cases like this, where the anxiety and depression symptoms appear to be caused by brain inflammation?

    You can certainly try a SSRI like Paxil, but be on the lookout for this side effect.

    – Hip

  272. Some medical experience that would compare symptoms of tryptophane deficiency with CFS would be certainly worse trying.

  273. I was infected 2 years ago with Coxsackie B and Cytomegaly at the same time. Bedridden for 3 months i tried most of the supplements mentioned. However, what made the difference was high quality Olive Leaf Extract. Its a very, very potent antiviral and brought me back on track within 1 week, after being bedridden for 3 months. Worth a try!

    REPLY: Thanks for your tip, Ibr.

    I did try olive leaf extract, but I did not notice much improvement. However, other people here have said it helped them. The main active principle, oleuropein, is very poorly absorbed from the intestine, so it may be that it only helps people who absorb it well.

    – Hip

  274. Wonder if anyone here has taken the supplement 5 htp. This supplement can also cause a disease very similar to this one. I’ve been in contact with a man who contracted similar disease right after taking 5 htp. The cause is believed to be some sort of bacteria used in the fermentation process.
    I dont seem to be able to post a link but the condition is known as EMS, there was an outbreak in the U.S. In the 80s and a ban put in place, however as i understand it the ban was later revoked. The bacterium or fungus may be a GMO.

  275. http://www.nemsn.org/symptoms.htm ok here is the link to condition mentioned in my previous comment.

    REPLY: Interesting. I was not aware that taking 5-HTP (5-hydroxytryptophan) may also pose a risk for eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome (EMS). I always though it was just the original contaminated batch of tryptophan from Japan that was to blame for EMS in the 1980’s. But from what I read just now, it seems that there may be further contamination of batches of 5-HTP or tryptophan, as EMS does still seem to occur very occasionally as a result of taking 5-HTP.

    Good to know. This site recommends that you should really avoid taking 5-HTP.

    – Hip

  276. @E…I saw your facebook photos. Have you ever had a biopsy done of any of those pimples? I have the same ones, and am going to see an ID doctor next week.

  277. > As I understand it, the bacteria that cause Lyme disease – namely Borrelia burgdorferi, afzelii and garinii – are not thought to be transmitted person-to-person, except in that

    >there have been occasional anecdotal accounts of these bacteria spreading sexually. So at best, these bacteria are

    >very minimally contagious, and in any case, the anecdotes suggest that it requires sexual contact to transmit. Correct me

    >I am wrong on this, or if you have some updated info.


    Sexual transmission of Lyme is just ine more medical fake.

    All this screaming about Lyme epidemy , lyme forums, Lyme organization is just another one big fake\fraud.

    Yes, people are ill, but that is NOT Lyme.

    Visit lyme forums -you will find that app. only 20% of patients was really bitten. Moreover, you can figure out that so-called chronic Lyme could be found in whole families and many more what is talking that all these Lyme epopee is just complete shit.

    And there a lot of stupid fanats of this shits exist as well as a lot of bastrads who making making money\career\reputation etc. on this shit.

    Again, i’m NOT talking that so-called Lyme patiens are healthy. They are ill, but with not chronic Lyme.

    Real chronic Lyme is very RARE condition …anecdotal condition.

  278. Has anyone had any sort of testing that shows that any of this is real and that there is something happening in the body? What kind of testing shows up abnormaliltes?

  279. It used to be that I would see 1 out of 4 people have this disease.. It has spread in my area significantly. I would say that 1 out of 2 or 3 have it now. FYI

  280. @ hudson

    Y r right, but this is the world statistic and not only your area.

    I saw this situation in many countries and areas.

    So after recovery it is better to find some house in deeply forest.. Alaska or Siberia maybe. Far away from people ))))

  281. Check this out Hip. They are saying the cause of this might be contaminants, but it could also be another place where this virus is wreaking havoc.


    REPLY: Yes, I was reading a bit about the effects of the Gulf of Mexico oil spill. Problem may come form one particular clean-up chemical used, called Corexit, as well as toxins in the crude oil like benzene.

    This would I guess potentially affect residents in costal areas of states facing the Gulf: Florida to Texas.

    Some videos on the BP oil syndrome.

    If you did have a virus like the one described on this site, or some other nasty microbial infection, and were also exposed to these spillage toxins, then it might make your condition worse, and it would be hard to figure out what was causing your symptoms, the virus or the toxins, or a bit of both.

    – Hip

  282. @ R

    No biopsies yet but lots of skin stuff going on. The dots come and go, occasionally some become permanent.

    from an earlier post, here is what I have been tested for so far:

    Coxsackie B Types

    reference interval is < 1:10

    B1 – result – positive: 1:40

    B2 – result – negative: 1:10

    B3 – result – positive: 1:20

    B4 – result – positive: 1:160

    B5 – result – negative: < 1:10

    B6 – result – negative: < 1:10


    reference interval is < 1:40

    echovirus 11 result – positive: 1:80

    HHV-6 IgG

    reference interval is:

    negative – 0.9

    equivocal – 0.90 – 1.10

    result – positive: 2.16

    Chlamydia pneumoniae

    IgG: reference interval is 1:256

    IgM: reference interval is < 1:10

    result – negative: < 1:10

  283. From The White House

    April 28, 2011

    Dear Friend:

    Thank you for writing. I have heard from many Americans whose lives have been affected by a wide range of health conditions and diseases. Whether they are common, preventable ailments or rare, life-threatening illnesses, we must do more to find cures and improve treatments for patients.

    I have always been a strong supporter of medical research that saves lives, relieves suffering, and improves the quality of life for those afflicted. Medical miracles do not happen by accident. They often result from painstaking and costly research, as well as years of trial and error. From the sequencing of the human genome to life-saving vaccines and pioneering cancer treatment, Federally-funded research has led to scientific progress and improved health care for countless Americans.

    My Administration has already begun the work of advancing medical research. The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act made $8.2 billion available to the National Institutes of Health for scientific research grants. This money will help fund an array of research projects in labs and hospitals across the country. I also lifted the ban on Federal funding for embryonic stem cell research, which has the unique potential to help us better understand — and possibly cure — some of the most devastating diseases and conditions. To explore the steps my Administration is taking, please visit: http://www.nih.gov or http://www.cancer.gov.

    This work is essential not only for our health and well-being, but also for the progress of all humanity. Together, we can ensure America continues to lead the world in medical research and scientific discovery. Thank you, again, for writing.


    Barack Obama

  284. Yes those red dots come and go. I felt better for 6 months under selenium therapy. However as of late, I have regressed. It’s odd but when it comes back, it comes back quickly. My guess is that it has become tolerant and resistant to the selenium. I was taking 400 mcg per day. I am trying to up my dosage to 600 mcg but don’t know if that will work.

    This thing is awful. I can tell it has come back and come back with a vengence. My livedo has come back dramatically and all my veins are showing including the very small capillaries. I have felt the anxiety and muscle twitching come back. The chronic sore throat and peeling skin hasn’t so far but I imagine that they will over time as this virus continues to replicate. I know that this isn’t all a coincidence since they are all connected. I was thankfull for my six months of feeling better. I don’t know what triggered it but somehow this thing overcame the selenium dosage. Just like those people in China that mentioned about Epivir and how it works initially. I can imagine if I take Epivir, it may work initially, but it will develope resistance in 6 months just like the selenium.

    My skin has gotten worse very quickly. I feel itching all over at random areas. My guess is that it does damage to the veins, causes them to lose elasticity, and the itching is actually pain on a small level (damage to veins). I don’t what else I can do now as I feel I have gotten back to square one. The red dot pimples come back too and they do come and go. Just another symptom of this virus. Everything that I think about on this virus is that is some coxsackie variety. Some new mutant coxsackie virus due to its contagiousness and symptoms.

    Any other anti-virals that people here have tried that help, please post them.

  285. >IF this disease is spreading all of the world?


    yes, it is.

    BTW it can be that this is very old disease and only now people start to pay some attention to it.

  286. It would be nice to get a biopsy of one of the “pimples.” I am trying to get this done now, but every doctor I talk to says “it is probably nothing and it doesn’t look like something that would turn up on a biopsy.” To which I always reply, “doesn’t hurt to try, right?”

  287. When my red dots arrive, they are always carrying a white substance (similar to a pimple when you pop it). It makes me wonder if this white substance is just flowing through our muscles and causing this.

  288. I personally think the red dots with the white centers are related to hair follicle infection. I already had rosacea and these seem to be more like that. For me they all have a hair at the center or right below the surface of the skin. They tend to be more predominant when I’m fighting a cold or something.

  289. Dear Hip,

    I want to share my experience with kundalini yoga. This kind of exercise make me feel happy and in good condition. I am sure, you can find a difference if you try it. In internet you can find a lot of material, but i must notice that it is better to practise in group. I wish all the best to anyone here, this is a good opportunity for all of us.

  290. @C .. if you read the older posts.. again I have mentioned the visible livedo on people’s skin. It’s very obvious. Soon, no one in my area will have clear smooth even colored skin.

    The red dots that I get are small and red. Almost up to the size of a pencil eraser end. Some of them do are similar to pimples. Some do have fluid inside where popped.. it comes out. Keep in mind, I had clear skin before I had been sick. When I first got the red dots (this was before I realized anything wrong), I went to a dermatologist and he said it was adult acne. I found it odd that I would get adult acne at 30 yrs old. The pimples are connected to this virus. When I was taking the selenium therapy and when I was getting better, I noticed that many of the red pimples subsided. However when I got real bad a few days ago, the red spots started appearing again all over in different areas like I was breaking out like some teenager.

    I had bad anxiety this morning too or just my heart was beating fast for no reason. I took my normal dosage of selenium and other herbal stuff and within an hour, it subsided and I began to feel better. I noticed that today, the itching had been reduced and the livedo had died down a bit. My skin was red in many areas and it had subsided somewhat.

    My guess is that along with what hip mentioned about thiols is that perhaps something I had eaten or taken recently had inhibited the selenium from working thus allowing this virus to replicate like crazy. In reading what he mentioned about thiols, I had eaten a lof of boccoli and eggs together a few days before. My guess is the selenium might have been inhibited and the virus broke out like crazy. Trust me when this thing broke out like crazy a few days ago, I felt like I was deteriorating again. That feeling is just terrible. So far, selenium is the only anti-viral that I found to help with this virus.

  291. This virus is no doubt spreading. I’ve watched it go from 1 out of 4 people in my area having it to 1 out of 3 or 2. I check for it everywhere I go now.

    I was at the gas station today and saw some cholo looking Latino dude. He had it for sure. He had the redness. He had a runny nose and his hands were dry and full of psorasis. Half the people at Costco had the lived on their arms. Let me know this for any doctors or doubters that read this forum; Since when have you seen so many people with livedo skin? Half the population in an area all have livedo skin? HMMM.. I don’t think it’s a coincidence.

    I was at the bank and from a distance, I couldn’t tell that some girl had it but all the tellers there had it from me looking at their skin from upclose. Their skin was similar to mine in texture, blotchiness, and their veins are more prominent. Sad, young people have their looks and youth taken away by some contagious crazy virus.

  292. One of my friend’s friends got psorasis bad too. THe dude is only 34 years old and showed me had dry his hands had gotten of late. He said he’s never had experienced anything like it. His skin on his hands are so dry that they’re peeling away. He said he was going to see a doctor.

    I explained to him that he can do that but it’ll be a waste of time. The doctor will only tell him stuff from old medical books. I explained that I had similar dry skin and that it had been worse before. I too felt like my skin was going to peel off. I told him that it’s caused by a virus and that if he gets worse, he needs to contact me and I will tell him what I’m taking. Haven’t heard from him yet but I’m guessing his doctor probably told him to get some lotion and so I’m sure he did. I used to use lotion a bunch before but it never felt as good as natural hand oils. I’m just happy that my hands are not peeling as they were. I do notice too that my nails are more brittle and more easily split or cracked.

  293. Your article on chronic throat illness was eye-opening. I have watched my 30 year old daughter change from a vivacious, beautiful, intelligent, goal setting young women, to an obese, depressed and chronically ill woman. She is chronically ill with colds, and sore throats, is on meds for depression, and is now obese. It breaks my heart to watch her slowing deteriorate. She has lost several jobs and is currently unemployed. She used to blame her chronic illnesses to working in air conditioned environments. She cannot use that now as her illness reason since she has been unemployed for over 6 months now. This has been taking place over a period of about 4 years now. She has been to the doctor multiple times, and they have tested her thyroid and various other things. All her tests come back normal! She now believes this is her destiny in life! She has a 4 year old daughter who is now chronically ill with colds and sore throats. When she takes her daughter(my granddaughter) to the doctor, they say that it is normal for children under the age of 5 to have colds every 6 weeks. I’m now concerned that my granddaughter might have the same virus!

    I am planning on speaking with her this evening regarding your article. This gives me so much hope! Thank you, thank you, thank you for being so honest about your health. Please let me know any information you have on what you would recommend we do to help my daughter and granddaughter!


    REPLY: HI Cathy. Sorry to hear about the illnesses in two of your family members.

    Though I am pleased that this website has been eye-opening, as that is one of the main goals of this site: to explain how microbes can really exert a profound and life-changing effect on human health. I think there needs to be more general awareness of this. We tend to blame things like obesity on the behavior of the individual, but in all likelihood, the obesity epidemic is probably is caused by one or more microbes in circulation.

    Your daughter may not necessarily have the virus described on this website: there are lots of microbes that can cause generally similar symptoms to the symptoms listed on this site. The fact that you say your daughter is catching lots of colds suggests that she may not have the same virus: this is because most people, once they catch my virus, almost never get colds anymore. Generally speaking, a high immunity from colds is often found in people with chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS is the condition this virus I caught precipitated in me). In chronic fatigue syndrome, part of the immune system is boosted and overworked, and other parts of the immune system are weakened; but I guess it is the boosted, overworked part that protects people from catching cold viruses.

    One way forward for your family would be to see an infectious disease specialist, and better still, an infectious disease specialist that has experience in CFS. There is a list of CFS doctors on the Treatments Page of this website.

    It may be that your daughter has caught something that is in fact quite treatable. This is why it is worth making the effort to see an ID specialist: you may be lucky and find a good treatment.

    I hope this is of some help.

    – Hip

  294. Can anyone tell me how to take bulk Colostrum? I tried both, adding water and milk, but it just clumps up. Ive even tried heating the mixture in the microwave and it still doesn’t desolve much better….Thanks

    REPLY: A Bastante says below, you can just put the powder in your mouth, and swallow by drinking some water.

    Otherwise, if you want to take you colostrum mixed in with milk, a “shaken, not stirred” approach works well: just put a few heaped teaspoons of colostrum powder into a glass of milk, cover and seal the top of the glass with the palm of your hand, then with your palm still in place, pick up the glass and shake.

    Heated milk may damage the colostrum proteins.

    – Hip

  295. To wjrf: Just take three heaping teaspoon fulls, at least twice per day, on an empty stomach. With each dry mouthful have a glass of water near by. It tastes good and is great to chew, with a little water. Symbiotics – Colostrum Plus Powder.

  296. hi all…

    ive not visited the board for awhile becoz i just needed a break …but, of course, you all are never too far from my thoughts (especially when i look in the mirror, heh “>p

    anyway, i really wanted to say thanx Hip for contacting me last week, and getting me reconnected with Mom- i really appreciate it. its a good conversation allready, & i think we both needed to have that forum- thank you!

    also, i was just reading some of the recent posts here about the funky pimples- i have those too, for about oh, 6 or 8 months i guess now. they kicked in during holistic treatment for papulopustular rosacea/demodex infestation, i believed at the time they were bacterial caused by the die-off but they have persisted all this time. mostly my forehead & chin, also a persistent fissure inside one nostril that FINALLY healed a couple months ago but occasionally still reopens for a day or two at a time. i dont have the demodex overgrowth anymore, so the rosacea is much improved (for now at least)- just a few broken veins on the tip of my nose.

    but these bumps are never all gone, there’s always a few and if i mess with them they burn like fire. they seem to be centered on hair follicles but its nothing at all like follicutlitis, or ordinary acne, or anything else ive ever experienced. i had no idea they were a part of this thing too…

    anyway, i wanted to share that since ive been washing with a little diluted borax every day, they are much improved. i think they may be fluoroderma pustules, at least mine seem to be. Black Tea, Rooibos, wine & raisins all cause them to flare- especially tea, which is the worst. i made the connection after doing a bunch of research that led me to conclude the extremely high fluoride levels in tea had triggered my first ever attack of perioral dermatitis not long after i started drinking it over the holidays (normally im a big coffee person- id been trying to switch to tea thinking it was “healthier” har har). the dermatitis faded pretty fast after stopping all tea, but then something like eczema set in in round patches and it has taken all this time for it to almost clear.

    the thing all those things have in common is Fluoride. its super super high in the foods/ drinks i listed, becoz of modern farming practices & grapes, tea & rooibos soak flouride out of the soil. fluoride is a halide along with bromide, chlorine & iodine- both fluoride & bromide are known to cause skin conditions including “acne-like eruptions”, eczema, & dermatis especially perioral & periorbital. i had my first patch of eczema show up right where a drop of dilute bleach splashed.

    ive been taking boron to help chelate fluoride (borax actually- following Ted’s protocol on EarthClinic) and that has made a big difference in my energy levels altho side effects of flushing the crud out of my system are something else. but overall it has helped, i am a lot more functional again.

    the bumps have improved too, altho they do flare up now and then (ive gotten where i can usually identify something suspect in my last meal now) but as long as i consistently wash my face with the diluted borax and use the solution to swab inside my nose & ears, its really soooo much more manageable & they settle back down- im not even getting them inside my ears or forehead anymore, now its just the stubborn ones on the chin remaining (and they have scarred too, darn it- never had craters even in high school!)

    TRY BORAX GUYS- all of you who are having the bumps- see if it helps and write back your results!

  297. For the bumps you can knock them out with the readily available Acne medication, “Clearasil Daily Clear Vanishing Acne Treatment Cream which has as its active ingredient, 10% Benzoyl Peroxide. You can purchase it over the counter at any pharmacy such as Rite Aide, CVS, Walmart, etc. The killer peroxide linkage not only knocks out the bacterium which is responsible for Acne, but also a host of other pathogens, including fungus – excellent for resistant lesions of Athlete’s Foot when used to complement the use of Tinactin Powder in stockings – and mites and their eggs – effective spot treatment for scabies, as it penetrates the skin when rubbed in as directed. For the bumps you should see results within two or three days. Just rub it in, after washing the area or cleaning with rubbing alcohol, until it vanishes twice a day. When applying before going to bed, after rubbing in until it vanishes, cover the area with another thin but visible layer. Don’t rub that one all the way in to vanishing. Just let it dry so that it remains visible. That will deliver even more of the peroxide to the targeted pathogens while you sleep.

  298. beachman- so peroxide has been working for you? that’s so great to know there is something else that can be a help for these!

    unfortunately, peroxide ESPECIALLY Benzoyl Peroxide makes my skin peel away which does absolutely nothing beneficial for my own experience… so, just wanted to make a mention of that in case there are others who might be equally reactive, especially with such thin sensitive skin- definitely worth trying!-but, go easy at first just in case of adverse effects

  299. beachman- so peroxide has been working for you? that’s so great to know there is something else that can be a help for these!

    unfortunately, peroxide ESPECIALLY Benzoyl Peroxide makes my skin peel away which does absolutely nothing beneficial for my own experience… so, just wanted to make a mention of that in case there are others who might be equally reactive, especially with such thin sensitive skin- definitely worth trying!-but, go easy at first just in case of adverse effects

    but then, i guess tats good advice for any new idea eh?

    cheers! :)

  300. Had a punch biopsy taken of one of those “pimples” today on a part of the skin that was especially wrinkled. Will let you know a week from today if this yields any results.

  301. @ R

    Thx! Very interested to see the results. I am going into the dermatologist in a week or so to have a bunch of things looked at that appear to be exactly like melanoma. :( Little brown flaky patches.. Didn’t have any of them before this illness. I hope they are just skin tags..

  302. oh, i would love to see what both of you find out!

    R… HOW did you get a dr to agree to do a biopsy? NICE! :)

    …and E, ive been noticing those little “liver spot” looking things too. please post what you learn!

  303. @R,

    I suppose that results will not give anything special except typical skin flora because those “pimples” are not hotbeds of infection. Those “pimples” are just result of local underskin lymphatic vessels paralysis\damage. As result there are local problems with faties withdrawal in the skin and then you have sites of skin fat concentration especialy in and around hair follicles.

  304. I believe I have found some things that help with my enterovirus a lot. I have always felt that my digestion changed a lot when I got sick over two years ago and my usual acid reflux changed suddenly overnight to a stomach that seemed make weird noises like I had the flu for two years. After becoming ill, it was like I didnt have enough stomach acid. I have recently been using hydrochloric acid supplement and a Solaray product (cayanne ginseng blend) and it seems to help with energy, digestion, and skin issues may be improving (too early to tell) I do believe that my virus is stomach related and it seems the increase in stomach acid and effect of cayanne, ginger and peppermint aid general digestion as well. Hope this helps someone.

    Also I had posted an earlier listing about trying Paxil. Yes originallly it caused some real issues but after two weeks it does help with my anxiety big time. I still have some moments but in general it is a huge improvement for me and dealing with depression and anxiety. Good luck to all in dealing with a bug that seems very resistant to leaving.

    REPLY: Thanks T.

    The lack of stomach acid is a common occurrence in CFS, and what you are doing using a hydrochloric acid supplement is good. An alternative can be to take malic acid capsules (dose: 500 mg to 1500 mg) right after eating, as these can also help digestion, and furthermore, malic acid is a very beneficial supplement for CFS – it boosts energy, plus it is antiviral. I have also read that, paradoxically, malic acid helps alkalize the body.

    Did Paxil (paroxetine) cause an increase in depression or anxiety when you first took it? I had terrible problems when I took a similar SSRI drug Celexa (citalopram), namely hugely increased depression within hours of taking it. It was so bad, there was no way I could have possibly continued citalopram for the recommended two weeks that are required for the drug the do its job.

    However, I do very well with the anti-depressant imipramine, one of the oldies but goodies; it was introduced in the 1950s, as is now well out of patent, so it is quite cheap.

    – Hip

  305. @ E and @ portlandchic – I also get those melanoma looking blood blister type things. They have always gone away before getting to the doctor for me, but I have shown the dr pictures of them. He thought it looked like ruptured blood vessels. E, Please let us know what you find out, I am curious.

  306. @portlandchic – I went back to a different doctor and told him about my difficulties and asked if he would do one. He said yes, which is more than any other dr. has done. We will see. I am hoping for something, but understand I might not find anything out. At least it was not the same old blood test that everyone takes and says, you’re normal.

  307. “Does it eventually go away or is it on going? Is so, whats the duration?”

    This is what I would like to know as well. Hip do all suffers get progressively worse? Do you know anyone who has stablisied or become better at all?

  308. I know this is my third comment in approximately 30 minutes, but I just thinking about how E and portlandchic’s symptoms mirror mine and just wanted to state how glad I am that this website exists. I really think that if you people were not here to talk about and confirm this stuff with me I might lose my mind. Thanks guys.

  309. http://farmandranchfreedom.org/gmo-miscarriages

    sorry hip, i know you mentioned not wanting to drag the gmo debate into this discussion- but… more & more evidence is pointing to ‘new & improved’ gm pathogens that are like strange fungal/viral hybrids, hard to see even under electron microscopy & almost no way to identify in humans becoz of industry stonewalling.

    however… livestock has begun to show measurable & obvious health effects and it doesnt really take a university degree to connect basic biology dots… (this article gives a well written summary)

    as lucy would say

    “oh No, ricky, no… waaaaaaahhhh!!!”

    :( :( :( :(

  310. Recent Outbreak Activity

    Localized outbreaks of pertussis are not uncommon and occur throughout the year. Some examples of current pertussis activity in the US include:

    From January 1 through December 31, 2010, 9,477 cases of pertussis (including ten infant deaths) were reported throughout California. This is the most cases reported in 65 years when 13,492 cases were reported in 1945 and the highest incidence in 52 years when a rate of 26.0 cases/100,000 was reported in 1958. Previously, the peak was in 2005 when there were 3,182 cases reported. Disease activity is still at relatively increased levels throughout the state and the number of cases observed in January 2011 is equivalent to the number of cases reported during the peak months of 2005. Data for 2010 is still preliminary and final case counts are not expected until Spring 2011. Visit the California Department of Public Health website for the most recent information.

    In Michigan, an increase in pertussis was first observed in the second half of 2008, continued throughout 2009, and has continued to date throughout 2010. This is on top of a long term rising trend in the reported number of pertussis cases since about 1990. As of December 31, there were 1,519 cases reported for 2010. In 2009 (for the complete year) there were 902 cases reported. In 2008 there were 315 cases reported. Visit the Michigan Department of Community Health website for the most recent information.

    In Ohio, Columbus Public Health (CPH) and Franklin County Board of Health (FCBH) responded to an outbreak of pertussis during 2010. For 2010 year-to-date, there were 964 cases reported by Columbus and Franklin Counties. This is the most cases reported in 25 years. For the most recent information, visit the CPH website.

  311. As I was looking up my sickness of a prolonged sore throat I stumbled upon this story and thought “oh my gosh” I have the exact story! I dont think I have yet experienced the hearing loss yet or the cherry moles but everything else is to the “T” ….is it curable or fatal? Funny cause im currently studying to be an a.o.d counselor

  312. Hi Deanna

    It would seem that this virus causes myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME) in quite a few people, but ME is not generally a fatal disease. ME varies in severity from quite mild, so that you can carry on your life relatively normally, to pretty severe, so that you become housebound, or even permanently bedridden.

    There are a lot of things you can do, however, to lessen the effect of ME. ME is also called chronic fatigue syndrome.

  313. Looks like a very interesting book.

    One amazing statistic I read is that every liter of seawater contains about 10 billion virus particles! That’s an amazing library of readily-available genes, packaged in neat little containers (virions).

    For bacteria and other living microorganisms, these viruses are one way that new and varied genes are regularly delivered to these microorganisms. For microorganisms, viruses in some sense play an analogous role to that of spermatozoa in human reproduction delivering novel genes into the ovum.

    Pity viruses can often be so damaging to human beings. Though not all the time: the virus described on this website is probably a Coxsackie B virus, and we know how vile Coxsackie B can be; yet there is a similar, and naturally-occuring coxsackievirus that has been shown to kill cancer cells: Coxsackie A21 virus, which is already being used in cancer therapy.

    I often read these two excellent virology/microbiology blogs:



    They are always fresh, interesting and topical.

  314. Hey all.

    Been a while since I last posted because I feel that posting my uneducated thoughts is of little or no use to this blog. I have been periodically checking in to see if any developments have been made though.

    I just wanted to say that I strongly believe (and hope) that this illness, whatever the type or cause, will be acknowledged by the world media within the next year. I say this because I am noticing more and more people on television and radio with the telltale repeated throat-clearing. I imagine that anyone with our condition would at least try to stifle these coughs if they even went on television or radio at all so the fact that I am noticing them indicates that the vast majority of the general population (in N. America at least) have contracted this illness. If so many people are ill, then there really is no way that this “story” can stay out of the media.

    I have had the overwhelming urge to make posters and stand on street corners with signs that would lead people to this site but I have not done so in fear that the blog would become flooded with paranoid/anxious/etc. comments. I have wanted to contact my local media but I worry that they will give me the same doubtful response(s) that my friends and family have given me.

    I would not try to advertise this blog to the masses without your permission, Hip, because I know that it would seriously compromise the ability of people who already visit the site to discuss issues with each other. However, I can imagine the creation of a second and somewhat secret blog for the current users of this forum to move to if this site were to be compromised so that the masses of ill people could utilize the vast accumulation of information that you’ve put together here. What do you think? Too drastic? Other suggestions?

    I guess I will remind/update you on my condition.

    I have had this illness (I am hesitant to call it a virus only because I do not know) for 13 months and one week today (I know that date that was infected).

    I have not tried any of the treatments you’ve suggested though I am sure they would likely help.

    Since quitting smoking both cigarettes and marijuana and seriously reducing my alcohol consumption, my sore throat has subsided so much so that I hardly even notice it now.

    I have considerably changed my diet to remove as much processed foods as possible. I have also been experimenting with removing dairy from my diet the past few weeks because I have noticed a significant reduction in the prevalence of zits/acne/sores (whatever they are) on my back, shoulders and chest. Despite these diet changes, my bowel movements seem to be getting worse.

    My most worrisome symptom is the wrinkling of my skin. Currently, my hands are beginning to look nearly as wrinkled as my mother’s (18 years older) and my father’s (nearly 16 years older). I am certain that this is irreversible and I would kill for a way to make my skin age at a normal rate again :( This was the subject of my last post in which I spoke of the acute-phase protein A1AT (Alpha 1-antitrypsin) which inhibits the enzyme elastase which breaks down elastin.

    I keep my energy up by exercising and eating healthy foods. I experienced the extreme fatigue during the first few months of my illness but I overcame it by forcing myself to get out and be active. Breathing oxygen is so important for maintaining wakefulness so staying in bed or on a couch indoors is bound to make you more tired.

    I believe that I have experienced the brain inflammation in a rather unique way: when I wear my large headphones for more than a half an hour, I can literally feel significant indents (I think they are in the vicinity of approx. 1/4 to 1/2 cm deep) in the top of my head where the arm connecting the speakers had rested. I do not know if this is normal and I have only just now begun to notice it. All I know is that, one night, I took off my headphones because they had become painful on the top of my head and I proceeded to feel the grooves in my flesh that I spoke of.

    I think that maybe my teeth might be starting to get darker but I brush and floss regularly and properly.

    I have been battling the fuzz on my tongue for about 6 months now and to no avail. I use hydrogen peroxide and sterile butter knives to kill and remove as much of the fungus as i can but I know that I am damaging my taste-buds.

    All of this summation is depressing. I can’t believe that this is likely going to be the way I live out the rest of my life; mitigating my ailments. I wish this were only a nightmare and I would wake up right now with a newfound respect for my body and health but I know that this is as real as can be.

    I wish you all the best and I thank you for reading.

    Stay strong.

    Happy Mothers’ Day to all of you mothers and everyone’s mother.

  315. Hi D, thanks for keeping us updated.

    First of all, if your tongue coating is the same as mine, namely “geographic tongue” (migratory glossitis), the white coating is in fact nothing more than your own (dead) white blood cells (WBC = your immune system), being primed to fight an attack unnecessary due to the high inflammation. No need to use anything like hydrogen peroxide, because geographic tongue is not an infection.

    Oral thrush is something different: this is a candida infection.

    It is important that everyone with this virus appreciates that their condition is likely a form of chronic fatigue syndrome (also called myalgic encephalomyelitis). This is because there are many websites that offer support and advice for CFS patients, so you can at least feel part of a community of CFS sufferers.

    It may be that this virus will spread more widely than other CFS-viruses, in which case, in a decade from now, there may be an epidemic of CFS.

    Alpha 1-antitrypsin deficiency is a genetic disorder, so you either have it or you don’t. It is pretty rare. Such a deficiency would I guess make the elastin-destroying effect of this virus a little worse, as alpha 1-antitrypsin protects elastin.

    But note again that in CFS in general, there are high levels of elastase (the enzyme that eats elastin) in CFS patients. So if, as I suspect, this virus has caused high levels of elastase that is dissolving our elastin, this is not that unusual for CFS. Some people with CFS lose their fingerprints, presumably due to their high levels of elastase. Loss of elastin is not irreversible. If you could stop the breakdown of elastin, it would regrow again.

    The main problem with high elastase is that it may destroy one of the body’s most powerful antiviral substances RNAse L. Normally, RNAse L is made in the cell, an will destroy all viral RNA within that cell. So it may be the high elastase that disables this potent RNAse L antiviral mechanism.

  316. Hip and D,

    Hip, occasionally I check in to see what’s going on, and D’s recent Post reminded me of a few supplements that may very well help D to finish clearing up his problem with his bowel movements, whether too loose or too infrequent. I haven’t been to the Treatment Page to see if any of these are part of your protocol, but if not, you may want to consider adding one or more of them.

    The first one is considered, in the alternative medicine community, to be the “silver bullet” of colloidal silver solutions. Prior to the development of antibiotics by the pharmaceutical industry, the natural antibiotic of choice in the medical community was colloidal silver which was used extensively. However, big money generated by the blossoming pharmaceutical industry with the development of prescription antibiotics suppressed its continued use.

    Nevertheless, today colloidal silver is making a comeback thanks in large part to the internet and the free flow of information it provides. With that said, the silver bullet is Mesosilver. There are other good ones, but this one is generally regarded by medical professionals to be the most effective. I have used it myself and have found it to be amazing.

    To get an idea of how useful it is, I suggest you start by reading some of the testimonials about its use. However you won’t find any of them on the Mesosilver website as they explain that FDA regulations prohibit their posting any testimonials that suggest it cures any medical condition.

    Therefore, I suggest you start here:


    Then scroll down to the titled Links and read the ones that interest you. D, be sure to read the testimonials at “Acne”,

    “Lungs/Coughing”, “Skin Conditions”, and “Sore Throat”.

    To read more, just put the following into your “Search” box or engine – mesosilver testimonials – and read some of the hits. For a slightly different mix, add the word “cure”, i.e., mesosilver testimonials cure, and read the additional hits.

    As it is generally regarded that up to 90 percent of our immune system resides in our digestive tract in the form of friendly bacteria, in order to ensure that yours are at full strength, particularly if you have ever had a course of antibiotics as well as while using mesosilver, I suggest you take the following probiotic as it helped restore me to health several years ago when I was literally at the brink of death with severe ulcerative colitis. It is the Vitamin Shoppe’s own brand called Ultimate’10’ Probiotic.


    D, be sure to read both of the two pages of testimonials by clicking on their Link or go here:


    On the second page of the testimonials be sure to read the one entitled, “Amazing” by an individual with Crohn’s Disease and the one entitled, “What a difference” by someone with IBS (Irritable Bowel Syndrome).

    One other probiotic I would add, which I take myself, is the Nature’s Way product called Primadophilus Bifidus. You can purchase it at the Vitamin Shoppe or possibly at a better price from swansonvitamins.com, vitacost.com, and/or iherb.com. I have found each of them to be reliable and prompt and to have some of the best prices available. It pays to shop all three as they all run sales at different times on specific products.

    Just one other thing. To help ensure that the immune system is functioning at its best, the food you consume has to be properly digested so that its nutrients can be absorbed. However as we get older, our bodies tend to produce fewer digestive enzymes in many cases. Another supplement which was key to my recovery, and which others may find useful, is the Vitamin Shoppe’s brand of Pancreatin tablets. While you’re at their website, just put Pancreatin into their Search box in the upper right or left hand corner of the page. The 300 tablet bottle is an excellent buy. I suggest you take 2 to 4 of the tablets, depending on the size of the meal, just before or a few minutes before your meal. Experiment with the dosage to find what works best for you.

    One last suggestion about the skin wrinkling. Try to drink at least eight full glasses (8 ounces) of water each day, fluoride free if you can. In the course of our busy lives, we often tend to drink less plain water than we should. Actresses, in particular, are very cognizant of the benefit of water, and occasionally you will see or read an interview with an older actress who attributes her great skin to drinking lots of water. In yesterday’s Sunday “PARADE” suppplement to the newspaper, the actress, Angela Bassett, who is 52 (albeit several years younger than me) was asked, “What is your secret to staying close-up ready over the years?” Her reply was, “Drink a bunch of water and get facials regularly. I take care of my skin.”

    Good health and good luck to all.

  317. i really appreciate all your suggestions & observations beachman,

    in fact, i swear by most of those meself: probiotics & herbal bitters/enzymes especially. i am also currently getting a lot of relief from bad bone pain with a hydroxyapatite bone formula. it is touted to help replace the bone calcium, vit D, and minerals lost through fluoride toxicity/detox. i was skeptical but it has really helped immeasurably! i dont take the silver however, instead i use Raw (with the mother) cider vinegar to do the same thing.

    between these, plus a careful diet to minimize chemicals & additives, and avoiding soy, oat (personal sensitivity), most dairy & reduced wheat… i am feeling better overall than in several years. i do have more/better lasting energy, better sleep, less tum troubles…

    but the skin? no amount of fluids has done a darn thing to help slow the rapid aging, wrinkling, thinning. (im with you D, sure wish there was help of some kind out there for that!) so far the rest has been manageable, ups & downs and only a slow decline overall…. but the skin part kinda worries me & not just the “getting old *& ugly” part- its the old lady thinness! my hands and lower arms look at least 65-70 years old & i am only 42- the skin is easily damaged & doesnt heal well at all. no offense but there’s definitely more going on here than simple dehydration!

  318. portlandchic

    have you been checked for osteporosis?ive been getting pains in my legs and back for ages.

    i got a ct scan which showed osteoporosis,so have had a bone density scan which shows im at high risk of my bones breaking.

    i also get pain in my wrists and arms.just awaiting one more blood test,parathyroid hormone then i can go back to see the endocrinologist.

    the nhs got the pararathyroid hormone test wrong twice so ended up having to get it done privately.

    maybe it could be a hyper or hypothyroid problem,as all my other tests were clear,my throat and breathing have just kept getting worse and the constant lack of sleep doesnt help.the pain and shortness of breath keeps me from sleeping.

    might be worth checking your bones if they are giving you trouble.daveyboy.

  319. Hi!

    Ive had all of the above, sore throat for a few weeks and generally feeling tired, then errupted into a terrible flu like illness for 2 days, during which time my throat swelled up at the back (i have no tonsils) and my nose was completely blocked. As I started to feel better was having a lot of thick yellow mucous but still feeling tired.

    At the inital sore throat stage I was perscribed penacillin which did nothing. During the fever stage my throat was so bad I was suffering a lot and was waiting on bacterial throat swab. My partner takes azithromyacin all the time due to being born with lung disease and suggested I try it and the next day I was tons better! Ive taken 1 500mg tab a day for 4 days and have next to no physical symptoms what-so-ever!


    have found myself with memory loss and being very clumsy!

    The interesting thing is that azithromyacin is used to treat chlamydia and gonahrrea. Have you been tested for these? I havent. Just because you might be faithful doesnt mean youq partner is, and stds can infect your whole body! Forget about incubation periods, oral chlamydia/gonahrre can vary, get checked to be sure, ill never know now I guess!

  320. ha… ) Listen what people are talking.


    Azi usually can’t cure fully this shit. But i now someone in early stages who was cured.

    And this is NOT chlamydia/gonahrre or something like that.

  321. Hi Loulou

    Thanks for posting up you story.

    The even more interesting thing about azithromycin is that it is one of the only antibiotics that I am aware of that also has a powerful antiviral action. For this reason, azithromycin is often used by people with CFS.

    I have tried azithromycin, and while I am taking it, my sore throat symptoms disappear, and I have a little more energy.

    I had a full set of STD tests performed (all negative).

  322. @Hip

    >I have tried azithromycin, and while I am taking it, my sore

    > throat symptoms disappear, and I have a little more energy.

    And you still thinking about virus. Totaly unbelievable. ))

    Y r probably the most obstinate\single-minded person i ever met.

  323. maybe theres a co infection with viral and bacterial infection

    either way i guess its the immune system thats at fault,am i right in thinking theres no fast and efficient way of fixing an exhausted immune system?,daveyboy.

  324. Awesome, informative, eye opeing, awareness raising stuff here…this is great medical research and findings and great applied “remedies”….love it…thanks for your forward thinking!

  325. Hey thanks for the responses Beach Man and Hip; much appreciated.

    I once met a man who swore by colloidal silver but he honestly didn’t look too healthy to me; his skin actually looked kind of silvery. Also, he had some way of producing it himself; I’m not sure exactly how he does (or doesn’t) do it. I may just have to order some and give it a try.

    A1AT is produced in the liver and my guess is that our livers have been compromised in some way (maybe overworked). This means that, hypothetically, we have a non-genetic case of A1AT deficiency resulting in higher levels of elastase. This idea of mine is the kind of uneducated speculation that I’ve tried to avoid posting because I could be horribly wrong and misleading. I am not a doctor; I am merely an intelligent person endowed with the internet.

    Anyways, thanks again. Take care everyone.

    P.S. @Kozak

    If you do not agree with Hip’s reasoning and he does not agree with yours then I think it would be a great idea for you to start a similar blog of your own and stay off this one. I do not know all of the details of your disagreement but I can only assume that neither of you have had medical education and both of you are merely speculating just as I have. Please, keep your negativity to yourself. Thank-you.

  326. @D

    there is no any negative in my post. Just live discussing… sometimes ironic or\and sarcastic discussing, but without any negative.

    P.S. Colloidal silver is quite dagerous stuff btw.

  327. @D

    >If you do not agree with Hip’s reasoning and he does not agree with yours then I think it would be a great idea for >you to start a similar blog of your own and stay off this one.

    And D , do you think that starting another blog to discuss THE SAME problem is good idea?

    I don’t think so…. I think that it is stupid to do so and to spend a lot of power and time for that if blog on exact subject already exist.

  328. TO: D

    The high levels of elastase in this disease very likely come from our immune system itself, in the form of neutrophil elastase, and/or fibroblast elastase.

    Neutrophils are a cell in the blood that make elastase to dissolve and destroy pathogens like bacteria. In long-term infection, this high elastase output may start to take its toll on the body (particularly the skin and connective tissues, which contain elastin).

    Another type of cell called a fibroblast also can make elastase. Fibroblasts are found in situ in the skin and connective tissues, and are responsible for constructing and maintaining the the skin’s extracellular matrix. However, fibroblasts are also intimately involved in the immune response.

    In mid-dermal elastolysis (MDE), a skin disease that looks very much like the skin wrinkles produced by this virus, it is fibroblast elastase that is causing the skin damage. So you might guess that for this virus, it is the fibroblasts that are also to blame.

    Uncontrolled inflammation may have permanently switched on neutrophil or fibroblasts elastase production.

    The inflammatory cytokine called IL-1β is the messenger that will switch on fibroblast elastase production. So we may have high levels of IL-1β in the blood and tissues.

    IL-1β also makes your hair fall out, and IL-1β is usually the inflammatory cytokine that creates a white tongue coating of the type called “geographic tongue”, (not oral thrush, which is entirely different in origin).

    These are my guesses as to what is happening. I have put this theory together after several years of reading about biology.

  329. Well azithramycin worked for me ill just be observing over next few days.

    Been ill 2 months all together! The sore throat lasted 4/5 weeks alone before the flu like illness kicked in.

    Yesterday I gave my dog a bone to chew and 2 mins later stood wondering where hed gotten it from (im 26) :-/

    Ill let you know!

  330. Welcome to the wonderful world of “brain fog”, Loulou!

    That memory lapse story is the sort of thing that people with chronic fatigue syndrome do all the time, due to short-term memory difficulties, aka “brain fog”. Though normally it takes a few years before you get like that with CFS, so perhaps it is the azithromycin doing this in your case.

    I know that penicillin can cause a bit of a confused mental state, but I have not heard this about azithromycin.

  331. Thanks Hip! Your insight is much appreciated as always. From day one of reading this blog, I could tell that you had put quite a lot of time and effort into researching the science behind your guesses. You are a symbol of the human will to live.

    Kozak, I do not wish to start an argument with you though I will say that I had only assumed that you thoroughly believe that this is not a virus because of your statement, “And you still thinking about virus. Totaly unbelievable. ))

    Y r probably the most obstinate\single-minded person i ever met.” I cannot validate or disprove your theory, whatever it may be, but I can say that such comments are quite negative and far from productive. However, your responses to me have shown a different side so I am hesitant to label you as the “negative one.”

    Thank-you for warning me about colloidal silver. Ionic silver has antibacterial functions but colloidal silver is merely a suspension of fine silver particles. I imagine that, at first, the colloidal silver may dissociate into silver ions and have a positive effect but, in the long term, the patient is likely to suffer from symptoms due to heavy metal poisoning.

    Take care.

  332. @loulou

    Azi possibly can cure, but you should take it at least 4-6 weeks on intermitent manner (3×0,5g -4xWithout-3×0,5g-4xWithout- and so on till totally 4-6 weeks).

    If your friend have imunolog. determed lung illnes then he could be the source of this shit in your case.

    REPLY: Yes, azithromycin usually works better if you take it for a few days and then stop for a few days, and repeat the cycle.

    – Hip

  333. In response to several posts:

    I have been taking colloidal silver for years. Before antibiotics it was widely used as an anti microbial and is the source for the term, “born with a silver spoon in his mouth.” During the plague, those with the money to buy them sucked on silver spoons to ward off the disease. It is not dangerous if you are using pure silver colloid of nano particle size and not a silver salt, as the salts can turn your skin blue gray. It is rather expensive so now I make my own. Best simple system I’ve seen is on the Atlas Nova website: http://www.atlasnova.com/CSMakingInfo.htm

    It has not cured my condition but is very good for opportunistic infections. I recently used it to treat a bad gum infection and tooth abscess. I also used a battery device to run weak electric current through my gum, which also kills microbes. Saved a trip to the dentist.

    There are a lot of videos on youtube on colloidal silver, both for and against. Some articles on killing microbes with electricity too.



    I build my own devices using the instructions on this yahoo group: http://tinyurl.com/3vj464n Although legal in Europe and elsewhere, they are illegal to sell in the US, but they are simple and cheap to make. Again, before the days of antibiotics doctors used electrical devices to treat infections in the US.

    Foggy brain and memory problems are often the result of bad gut microbes. This virus seems to target the good microbes (they are the first line of defense of the immune system) and the bad ones over grow and give off toxins which cause fatigue, foggy brain, memory loss, and anxiety. I am constantly reinforcing the good guys with probiotics and avoiding foods that feed the bad ones, especially anything containing sugar.

  334. hi daveyboy, a belated response to your suggestion… yes, i am pretty sure this stuff HAS weakened my bones, whatever ‘this stuff’ may eventually prove to be. the fluorosis part i know of for certain, but whatever caused my pneumonia has to be what triggered the bad bone pain- and supplementing with this hydroxyapatite bone formula made instant relief, which to me says a lot.

    unfortunately as one of the Unwashed Masses with no insurance…. i have no way to see a doctor of any sort without falling down the rabbit hole. so ive chosen the old fashioned method of observation, trial & error (heck ive seen lots of certified docs doing at least some of their dxing the same way- you know, the “take this & we’ll see what happens” approach ;)

    sure am sorry for all the troubles youve been having… but glad that you have been able to get these informative tests done! curious to knwo what you learn once that parathyroid test is finally done right- ive wondered about parathyroid involvement more than once but just get so confused trying to decipher the chemistry & medicalese… interesting isnt it, that everything thats been done so far comes out ‘normal’… reminds me of when my mom first started her own slide into autoimmune illness back in the late 80’s, “the tests show you’re perfectly healthy, go home & be happy” ….

    of course the obvious weakness of relying solely on test results being that they can only define a ‘normal range’ and an arbitrary one at that- in & of themselves the tests often arent all that definitive. i think its the cumulative results adding up that often paints the real picture, & unfortunately in my family’s experiences it seems that most allopathic/conventional/western medical drs dont really like to listen. or dont have time to anyway. which is obviously going to be another factor in me being hesitant to go back on the doctor treadmill…:P

    if i could tho, i would go back to my naturopaths but in the meantime i am sure learning lots from watching all of you & what youve learned… another kind of cumulative picture! (thanx again hip, for hosting this board- without it everyone on here would be even more lost & floundering than we allready are with one another!)

    loulou… i wanted to offer a couple links for you to look at, in case you are not absolutely certain about cpn being a possibility… ive spent some time reading on the cpn blog and from what i can see they are another batch of concerned & very helpful folks who are also there to help sift the confusion…



    and dont let certain unhelpful comments such as the ‘chlamydia= somebody cheated’ dialectic throw you, that is just plain uninformed opinion… chlamydia, like herpes, aids & plenty of other nasties can be transmitted just as effectively through any variety of more innocent ways!


    Hi Portlandchic

    QUOTE: “so I’ve chosen the old fashioned method of observation, trial & error”

    This is exactly the ethos of this website: trying out supplements and (safe) drugs, even obscure ones, and seeing what benefits they bring, and then, if you find something that works well, sharing what you have discovered with everyone else.

    – Hip

  335. Chlorpyrifos – the cause of 7 tourists’ heart attacks?

    For anyone who has been following the continuing story of the mystery heart attack deaths of 7 different tourists that stayed at the “Downtown Inn Hotel” in Chiang Mai, Thailand: the latest news is that it may not be a coxsackievirus B as originally speculated, but rather these deaths may have resulted from the overzealous use of a bed-bug pesticide called chlorpyrifos in the hotel rooms.

    Chlorpyrifos is a very nasty chemical, which can cause autoimmunity, neurological disease, and apparently heart attack and heart inflammation.

    It is also used in dog flea collars, and pet shampoo.

  336. portlandchic,i got my test result for parathyroid hormone today,and it was normal.

    im worried because from what i read online when endocrine tests all turn up normal malignancy is much more of a probbability.

    so as you can imagine im fed up to the back teeth of bieng messed about by the med profession here,if it turned out ive had a malignancy for nearly 5 years my chances would not be great,i cant get an appointment back with the endocrinologist while next week either,im guessing the next course of action will be to either fob me off and give me bone supplements disregarding the reason why a 31 year old male would even have osteoporosis.

    which im going to object to of course.

    or would it be a needle biopsy? daveyboy.

  337. @Hip

    > Yes, azithromycin usually works better if you take it for a

    > few days and then stop for a few days, and repeat the cycle.


    Moreover, each day dosage regimen can lead to negative result esp. in longterm. This could be explained from MIC point in light of pharm. -kinetics and -dynamics.

  338. daveyboy, i havent been able to discover any test that is able to definitively identify fluorosis, they say its becoz fluoride is a salt rather than a metal or protein, bla bla, altho i personally suspect the powers that be just dont want EveryMan discovering much of anything negative about sodium fluoride…

    but, chances are good (bad?) that you likely have a lot of it built up in your bones and brain (as would we all), becoz it has become so prevalent in modern chem agriculture- fertilizers, pesticides, and livestock feed (!)- as well as leaching out of the nonstick skillets most of us have become accustomed to. and i am not even going to bring up the whole issue of tapwater & conventional dental treatments (…oops wait, i guess i just did). plus besides, the whole controversy over chemtrail toxicants sifting/raining down on us from the skies over most of our heads… who knows, maybe even more sources than that!

    i know in my bones (heh) that fluoride is responsible for my own bones weakening and i am only 10 years older than you. i just read about spinal fractures being ‘on the rise’ in active, athletic teenage girls… wait a minute! “on the rise”!? when did athletic teens EVER get spinal fractures before?? of course, the article went on to blame “more aggressive sports” & “heavier weights” but i thought of all earths history of women carrying extremely heavy loads from childhood on and i have to disagree… there is to my mind unquestionably something else at work. and i am convinced it is fluorosis. dental problems are skyrocketing in australia and america, which just happen to be two of the longest fluoridated nations & homes to Alcoa Aluminum’s main plants, which spew out the stuff we all now have no choice but to consume.

    the question of why a 30 year old man would have osteoporosis looms large indeed!

    would you consider investigating the possibility of fluoride damage for yourself? i would be happy to post links to a number of sites i have been going to for research, if you would like to check them out for yourself. just let me know.

    interestingly enough, 2 days ago my church’s prayer bulletin just posted an urgent request for support for one of our ladies who is right about my age. 45, i think. she has had her share of health problems allready and has been working hard to overcome them… but in the past few months she has had a lot more pain and her doctors have just notified her that her “bones are disintegrating” and “they dont have any idea why”…

    sounds so familiar, doesnt it.

    hugs to you, davey… its NOT fair at all… but we are all in it together and here to help hold one another up. i dont believe most of us would even be ill at all if it werent for all the polluting we have done of our poor mother world… but it is what it is- so lets keep putting our heads together to make the most of the health & abilities we still have! i dont hear anyone singing the final solo yet.

    cheers & hugs… sure hope those cancer tests show up negative like all the rest!

  339. hi portlandchic thanks for the reply.

    one of the tests i had done was for multiple mylenoma,protien electrophoresis,it was normal thank god.

    they did a few tests but they are all normal.

    yes id be willing to look into flouride problems,if theres any tests i could have done id be willing to try it,the big problem i have is,i have quite a few health problems which have gradually gotten worse and in 5 years not one medical proffessional can diagnose me.

  340. A very good thread on misdiagnoses of chronic fatigue syndrome can be found HERE. It worth reading the whole thread, as you might discover you don’t have CFS, but some other condition.

  341. Hi Hip,

    I read the thread on CFS and many other posts and opinions related to what we are going through. However, I am convinced that you have labeled what we have correctly. I believe this is truely some virus that causes chronic sore throat, and all the other symptons on your blog. I guess that I was contaminated in July 2008 and as of this date, I have experienced continued sore throat, loose girdle feeling, weakened joints, subtle hearing loss, crinkled skin, fatigue, receding gums, and now I fear having a sudden heart attack, so I’m taking everything that indicates heart health. I don’t care what anyone else says, I believe you have accurately pinpointed this as some type of respiratory virus and it’s affects are exactly as listed on your blog. The only thing missing is the scientific identity (name) of this virus and a cure. I’m still praying for a breakthrough in solving this health problem of ours… I do have faith, I do believe in blessings and I do believe in God. Take care!

  342. Hi Wjrf

    The credit pinpointing which virus is responsible goes to the ID specialist DR John Chia. When I first put this website together, I listed ALL the viruses (plus some bacteria and parasites) that may cause CFS, or that may cause profound neurological conditions.

    You can still see all these viruses I originally listed on this above page, but it was Dr Chia (who very kindly read the symptoms detailed on this site) who pointed out that only enterovirus properly fits the symptoms detailed; and he said that the other viruses listed do not really fit the bill (even though they are all linked to CFS, and can therefore cause similar symptoms).

    Only someone of Dr Chia’s enormous experience of the clinical symptoms elicited by infectious agents is capable of discerning the subtle symptom variations between one CFS virus and the next.

    Once put on the right path by Chia, I started looking at enteroviruses, particularly the Coxsackie B viruses, and realized that Coxsackie B viruses do fit the bill much more than any other microbe. The question is, though, which of the six Coxsackie B viruses might it I have? And since my virus has caused so much ill health on so many people, might I have caught a nasty new strain of coxsackievirus B?

    Recently I came across a study that found a virulent new strain of coxsackievirus B3 in Fuyang, China. This new strain is called the FY-19 strain of coxsackievirus B3.

    If anyone wants to read the intro paragraph of the research, it is here: Biological characters of a coxsackievirus B3 variant strain isolated from a hand-foot-mouth disease patient with severe clinical symptoms.

    I don’t have the full study, but interesting that it says in the intro paragraph abstract: “viral replication kinetic analysis suggested that the FY-19 proliferation increased rapidly and peaked at 14 hours post-infection“. In other words, as soon as this virus gets into the body, it replicates fast, reaching a peak after just 14 hours. This observation fits in more-or-less exactly with my observations that the incubation period of my virus is fast, approximately around the 12 hour mark (but with a range of anything from 8 hours to 24 hours).

    This is the first time I have come across a new coxsackievirus B strain that can match the super-rapid incubation period of my virus.

  343. This news might be very important

    it seems some of the patients in China have been cured with the way to cure fibromyalgia syndrome, FS which was recently found to be caused by EB virus. But this has not been proved to be true.

    REPLY: Thanks yc.

    Do you have a weblink for this fibromyalgia cure in China?

    – Hip

  344. TO: Daveyboy

    Here’s one for you, Daveyboy – it might explain the reason for your lung fibrosis:

    Mystery virus in 8 patients, and kills one.

    This happened in South Korea. In the 1 patient out of 8 that died, they found that pulmonary fibrosis (scarring of the lungs) developed rapidly from the viral infection.

    Further online research shows that this South Korean virus is very likely a new strain of H1N1 swine flu, called the H1N1 Chihuahua subclade with D225N

    Here is more info on this H1N1 Chihuahua subclade:

    CDC Delay On Korean H1N1 Non-Mystery Virus Raises Concerns

    Could your lung symptoms be due a chronic infection with some strain of H1N1 swine flu? I remember that this is what you once speculated about yourself.

    It wonder if it might be an idea to try Tamflu, and see if this fixes you?

    For the rest of us, this is nothing the worry about.

  345. hi hip,thanks for the reply.

    you know its funny you should say that because the only thing that ever made me feel almost better was tamiflu,i only had it for 1 week course though and when i told my gp i was feeling better untill id stopped taking it he refused to keep me on it insisting i didnt need anymore,if it is this strain of swine influenza im very concerned about the ammount of damage that will have been done by now,probbably irreversable damage,would it be safe for me to try tamiflu for a longer course,could it cause any problems,thanks.daveyboy.

  346. TO: Daveyboy

    I would have thought that if you tried Tamiflu before with no side effects, then it would be OK to take it again, but I obviously I am not a doctor. Perhaps find a doctor that can advise you. You can buy Tamiflu online.

    Tamiflu’s antiviral action works by blocking the viral enzyme called neuraminidase, which H1N1 depends on. (In fact, the “N” in H1N1 stands for “neuraminidase”).

    There are 3 herbs I know that are natural neuraminidase blockers, and therefore work in the same way as Tamiflu. These are: kelp, resveratrol, and astragalus.

    So you might try good doses of all of these herbs, three times a day, and see if they work. However, they are probably not going to be as strong as Tamiflu.

    It might be good to take Tamiflu plus the herbs together.

    Why don’t you print out the article about lung fibrosis being caused by H1N1, and show it to your doctor, and suggest that this may be what you have.

    As for the lung damage, I read that a drug called Entecavir may be able to reverse fibrosis.

  347. TO: Daveyboy

    Update: I just found three more neuraminidase inhibitors!

    A strong neuraminidase inhibitor is EGCG green tea extract, so you should definitely include this one. Then there is skullcap (both types work, baikal or common skullcap). Zinc is a mild neuraminidase inhibitor.

    So now you have 6 natural supplements that, when added together (and taken 3 times a day), should fight H1N1 quite well.

  348. thanks hip,

    i have siberian ginseng/astralagus capsules.will start taking them again,ill have to get the others maybe ill get them from amazon.

    i seriously think if i talk to the doctor about swine influenza he,ll look at me like im mentally unstable and hes told me theres no 100% accurate test for it than he can get done,i can ask him to prescribe it for me but im not sure what he will say,i guess if there was a way to get tested propperly then i could rule it out id know wether or not i actually have it then. daveyboy.

    REPLY: EGCG appeals to be the strongest, if you are going to buy these supps.

    – Hip

  349. I do wonder whether I have something similar. A chronic sore throat with loss of voice and demineralization of teeth as well as fatigue and confusion are my symptoms. This has now been going on for several months and at each attack or flare-up the symptoms get worse. I do not have leg weakness yet and try to exercise even when feeling sick just to keep some of my strength. Feeling like this is killing me slowly though. Thanks for your site.

    REPLY: Hi a.

    See how it goes. It’s only after a few years do get more of an inkling that you might have this or a similar virus, and CFS.

    Thanks for your post.

    – Hip

  350. Oh, I forgot to add that I have a quasi-chronic sinus infection as well. My husband and children are so far free of any symptoms. I will come back here again to read the info again as well as all the comments.

  351. a. does your nose feel realy dry all the time inside,and sore?

    my nose has been bad for quite a while now,feels inflamed dry and sore and ive started to get bits of blood with lumps of like yellow coloured mucous,it is like realy thick lumps of mucous though and it only happens rarely,maybe every few days.daveyboy.

  352. hey a. & daveyboy,

    try swabbing with a mild solution of Borax in warm water, 2-3x a day for awhile & see what kind of relief that brings-

    i get that exact stuff too, in fact ive had a big problem with it ever since last August a chronic nasal fissure opened up that never has totally gone away. my older son also has the stuff u describe- what a pain, it practically BEGS for picking but then punishes you if you give in & do it!

    ive tried sooooo many things, from garlic packs, to steam, to yogurt, peroxide, milk of magnesia, baking soda washes, colloidal silver ointment, neem, etc, etc, etc, and NOTHING helped.

    But immediately Borax washes made a big difference for both of us, weve been doing this for about a couple months i think and the crusty dry coating is pretty much gone most of the time now. and my nasal fissure closed finally closed up- hooray! (i still get the red rudolph nose tip sometimes tho)

    at first the yellow crusts would come back every few hours, but later got less & less, now i only swab when i feel that familiar sensation which ive realized hasnt been happening every day for awhile :) when it was at its worst i was even doing nasal irrigation with the solution, which really stings if the borax isnt totally dissolved so be careful if u try that. but it beautifully cleared up the sinus clots!

    you only need a pinch of borax in a small amount of warm water.

    ive also been washing my face with this solution, and my rosacea/eczema and all those strange follicular blemishes are hugely improved! after 5 months of eczema/dermatitis patches all over my face, i am finally down to one slightly rough patch on my forehead that is no longer discolored. and the blemishes are almost gone, no major new ones in several weeks, just a couple of the oldest still hanging around on my chin. for the last few years i have a strange cyst type thing on my chin, its very small to look at but periodically gets very painful flares when it randomly decides to sprout a huge white hog bristle. i always pluck the bristle & there is IMMEDIATE relief, the thing subsides for another few weeks. when my belmishes were at their worst, this thing started sprouting hairs frequently, sometimes more than one at a time, and i developed a couple others doing the same thing on other parts of my face. my scalp was also doing something strange i can t describe except to say it felt like it was alive and the hairs had a mind of their own… i was worrying about morgellons setting in but not wanting to even accept the possibility. all of that has also subsided immensely, im not having any problems with my hair at this time, the other two spots havent sprouted anything in a long time, and the one original sort of half-heartedly sprouted a quite ordinary white old-lady hair that hardly even hurt. (of course i still plucked it out :)

    so to everyone who has been having these sorts of issues i highly recommend trying the borax wash regimen, 2-3x a day, and stick with it as long as is needed to see improvement (unless of course it irritates rather than soothes- that would mean its not for you)

    i dont know exactly what makes it so effective, but im convinced of its usefulness! so try it- & be sure to share your results on this board, whether it helps you or no.

    my latest experiment, ive just started so its too soon to tell, is i am also now washing my hands & arms to see if it might be a cure for the flaking & white spotting & mild itching that looks like “pityriasis alba”, a supposedly ‘benign’ disorder caused by malassezia yeast that also supposedly has no cure. my hubby has it too, and this spring its especially noticeable for both of us, but so far just on our arms & nowhere else. i am wondering if this is something that has developed as a result of the wrinkling, or if it might actually be part of what is behind the tissue paper effect? would love to know what some of you gize think about that. anyway, i figure ive got nothing to lose… will of course let yall know if it helps in any way!

    REPLY: One of the symptoms of this virus is slow or non-healing wounds. What I found worked is zinc powder on the wound (just crush an ordinary zinc supplement tablets to get powder).

    – Hip

  353. oh Hip i saw your recent posts, so i guess this thing HAS finally been identified??

    some varient of Coxsackie-B… huh

    well, i guess im not too surprised at that after all. but how interesting! i wonder if its like AIDS, in that the actual virus doesnt seem to do much more than weaken its victims immune systems- its all the other hitchhikers setting in that cause all the problems? what do you think? i try to follow all the technical stuff as best i can, but i just dont have the brain power to make sense of it all like you can hip, or some of the other good brains on this board!

    my older son & i do know we allready have Coxsackie-a, we picked up a nasty case of Hand-Foot-Mouth disease back when he was in preschool. makes me wonder if having the one might possibly predispose toward contracting the other? and of course, ive heard that LOTS of people have Cox-a, maybe more than not, so could that be a factor in how rapidly this other seems to be spreading? or why there are some people who seem like they are totally fine, even tho they appear to be surrounded by folks who are ill?

    im sure its all SO complicated! id never figure it out. sure am glad for all of you who have the brains to understand & make sense of it for the rest of us here :)

  354. TO: portlandchic

    It’s only because I have been reading about this stuff for quite a few years now that I can make sense of a small bit of it.

    It was Dr John Chia who told me a few years ago that my symptoms appear to be a classic case of enterovirus infection. So this gives confidence that we are dealing with an enterovirus. “Enterovirus” is actually a name given to a whole set of viruses, including:

    Coxsackie A group viruses

    Coxsackie B group viruses


    Now Coxsackie A viruses are common, but they don’t really cause long term infections, nor cause conditions like chronic fatigue syndrome. Coxsackie A often just causes a cold, or sometimes hand, foot and mouth disease, but these are short-lived condition, and the Coxsackie A is soon completely cleared from the body. So I don’t think Coxsackie A would a factor in your eldest son.

    And we can rule out Coxsackie A as being the virus described on this website, as Coxsackie A viruses generally do not cause long-term infection.

    So, this leaves us with either: Coxsackie B or an echovirus as our culprit.

    It is the Coxsackie B group of viruses that are generally more severe, and strongly associated with CFS, immune system suppression, heart inflammation, meningitis, autoimmunity, diabetes, etc. Plus Coxsackie B seem to stick around in the body as a long-term infection.

    So it looks like if Chia says this is an enterovirus, it is very likely a Coxsackie B (rather than an echovirus).

    Your hitchhiker idea may well be right (but nobody knows for sure): if Coxsackie B is suppressing the immune system, then other hitchhiker microbes may get a free ride.

    For example, we all have bacteria in our intestines (good bacteria, and sometimes, not so good bacteria, like Staphylococcus, that may cause problems if their numbers increase). A healthy immune system keeps these bacteria in check; but in CFS patients, you often find that their gut bacteria are multiplying much more, probably as a result of suppressed immunity, and this puts strain on the body (as bad bacteria make toxins). So overpopulated bad gut bacteria may be responsible for a few of the symptoms of CFS (or may be responsible for worsening the CFS symptoms). I think this is why probiotics help, as they help control the not so good bacteria in the gut, often better than antibiotics do.

    But because there is so little research done on CFS, nobody knows for sure what the true causes are.

    Note that Coxsackie B does not usually continue to attack the immune system in an increasing way like HIV. The immune suppression of Coxsackie B is relatively mild, and stays constant.

  355. hip thanx for that post, you always write in such an easy to understand manner…(even tho i still usually forget most of it later, ha :D

    “It is the Coxsackie B group of viruses that are generally more severe, and strongly associated with CFS, immune system suppression, heart inflammation, meningitis, autoimmunity, diabetes, etc. Plus Coxsackie B seem to stick around in the body as a long-term infection.” … that makes so much sense to me in light of my family’s experiences! both immediate & extended family members alike

    very glad to know that it shoulde be expected to reach some point of constancy (a sort of fragile balance then?) instead of continually sliding downward… i know that has been a BIG QUESTION for many of us here, what can we expect longterm?

    so it sounds like, if we can figure out our bodies’ new/increased needs for immune balance, and manage to maintain the balancing act, then we should likely be able to achieve a sort of health even if it does remain in a diminished state to what we remember…

    well… i think i can get used to that- its maybe iffy but it sure beats having to face the inexorable decline i was really afraid of :) -especially when i think in terms of the kids! maybe, since they were so young when they began showing signs, their bodies will ‘learn’ to manage the virus better than we olders might.

    ive been holding on to that hope anyway, but now i feel like i might have a bit more reassurance to– thanx!

    i will have to look up this Dr. Chia & read more of what he has to say

  356. i just looked a little higher on the list and saw your response:

    “One of the symptoms of this virus is slow or non-healing wounds. What I found worked is zinc powder on the wound (just crush an ordinary zinc supplement tablets to get powder).

    – Hip”

    wow yes, nothing heals on me like it used to! sometime last year things started just staying open, not necessarily infected… just, not scabbing & mending like they should, for weeks at a time. the latest is a nice long nick where i accidentally shaved a 2″ strip off my shin- oops. well, its not the first time, but theyve always healed with no problems or even scarring before. this time the darn thing stayed open & oozed for several days until i gave up & stuck tissue to it, then it sorta scabbed but not really becoz it would wash off & reopen every time i bathed. FINALLY well over a month later it has healed over but i have a bright red dented “hypotrophic” scar. ive never had anything like it before!

    tried to look it up but couldnt find much except for a comment or two that this type of scarring might appear more in people with underlying collagen disorders. so, i guess no surprises there…

    so far i am glad to say that my hubby & kids all still seem to heal just fine. altho my older boy gets knobby scars that stay purple & funky for a long time.

    i love your suggestion for applying zinc powder to wounds… i will definitely do that next time one of us gets an owie, & let u gize know how it works!

  357. this virus you mention is not a new virus-it is HTLV-1/2 they are retroviruses related to hiv. every symptom you describe is attributed to them. I and all members of my immediate maternal family have it. my spouse and child both have contracted it. read up on ham tsp-or tropical spastic perapesis. check out DR. John Martins work at CCID website to see what other lovely things can result from the mutating of retroviruses with bacterial plasmids(stealth pathogens). the cdc and nih have been covering this up for a very long time. have your doctor run a western blot for Htlv-bet you’re positive.

  358. hi scott, i just read a bunch of pages on that htlv thing but gosh, about the only thing that seemed to match up for my family would be my native heritage… but that seems pretty shaky as its several generations removed.

    i dont know if it is what we all have tho could be for some of us for sure… but i couldnt find anything that talked about some of the other odder symptoms that we all seem to share, like the strange chest livedo, or the tissue paper skin. and only a few of us have actual limb weakness i think? which seems to be kind of a hallmark of htlv?

    thanx for your thought tho for sure, every idea has to get looked at fairly… how did your drs id this as the problem for you? do you know how you contracted it, and what has it been like for you?

  359. Hi Scott, thanks for you post.

    I have read quite a few things about HTLV, and I did read up about tropical spastic paraparesis, as it does sound similar to my symptoms.

    I take it you and your family have all been tested positive for HTLV. Are you showing any symptoms of HTLV, or is it under control?

    The virus I caught is not HTLV, because:

    (1) HTLV does not transmit from person to person by normal social contact, only by blood and breast milk, or via sex, and I guess theoretically during childbirth.

    My virus definitely does transmit from by normal social contact, via saliva.

    (2) HTLV has an incubation period of about 20 years before any symptoms show, if they do all. My virus has an incubation period of less than 24 hours, and the symptoms always show.

    (3) HTLV testing is very straightforward, and I was tested negative for HTLV I & II.

    HTLV has got a very patchy distribution throughout the world. There is virtually none in Europe. In the US, only Florida has any significant level of HTLV. HTLV is very strong in the Caribbean, and also rife in parts of Japan (but is now being brought under control in Japan simply by their policy of not allowing HTLV infected mothers to breast feed babies).

  360. @ Portlandchic

    I’m not sure if you saw my earlier post mentioning my test results confirming Dr’ Chia’s theory. I tested positive for 4 enteroviruses: Coxsackie b 1,3, and 4, and also echovirus.

    I am currently on Dr Chia’s treatment plan.

  361. I’ve been trying to find out what is wrong with me for several years. Seems that if its not “obvious” to doctors, they just won’t pursue it. I’m not sure if this virus is what I may have but I have just about all the symptoms after adding my latest ones; clumbsiness, extreme weak muscles and the thing with words. I have hypothyroid disease already, which my Dr monitors and my latest increase in medication has not impacted my symptoms (darn it). I am getting desperate as I see my days lost to napping and migrain medication. There is one symptom however that I’m wondering if anyone has, which is a severe reaction to fragrances in lotions, sprays, colognes etc.. My chronic soar throat becomes severe and my breathing so labored I actually have started wearing a mask at work. Actually, this and swollen dry eyes were my first symtom. I’m wondering if anyone else is experiencing a reaction to fragrances. I do not react to natural flowers or natural oils.

  362. Hi dancer

    You might want to look at the posts by “C” on this page; she experienced a chemical sensitivity also.

  363. hi E, thanx for sharing those results (again? sorry, i must have missed your earlier post). in a way it feels good to know or at least have an idea what exactly this bug is… a starting place to plan from anyway… if that made sense. im feeling a little frizzled today.

    anyway, mom & i have both been wondering whether youd heard anything yet on the dermatology tests? hoping those brown patches are just skin tage or something similarly harmless… tho it does seem strange to be developing what looks like ‘liver spots’ at my tender age (i am 42 ;) …what age group do you place yourself in if i am not being rude by asking?

    and could i also ask you to post a description of how long you have been ill with this bug and how it has progressed for you? what strategies have helped you the most in coping, what hasnt, etc…

    im sure you probly allready have done this before, so please forgive my redundancy… i just could nt find the post…

  364. hi E, thanx for sharing those results (again? sorry, i must have missed your earlier post). in a way it feels good to know or at least have an idea what exactly this bug is… a starting place to plan from anyway… if that made sense. im feeling a little frizzled today.

    anyway, mom & i have both been wondering whether youd heard anything yet on the dermatology tests? hoping those brown patches are just skin tage or something similarly harmless… tho it does seem strange to be developing what looks like ‘liver spots’ at my tender age (i am 42 ;) …what age group do you place yourself in if i am not being rude by asking?

    and could i also ask you to post a description of how long you have been ill with this bug and how it has progressed for you? what strategies have helped you the most in coping, what hasnt, etc…

    im sure you probly allready ha done this before, so please forgive my redundancy… i just could nt find the post…

    oh, also, does dr chia have his plan posted online anywhere? i tried to look it up but got a little lost… i am not in CA & no ins anyway, so no hope of a direct consult.

  365. oop, that was wierd… sorry for the dupe posting, the last question was supposed to be a new post, not sure what happened ^*^

  366. hi portlandchic.

    is borax a form of bleach?,my nose is always dry inside i mean severly dry.

    its as if no mucus is coming to my nose at all.

    well off bck to see the endochrinologist in 10 mins i wonder what he will have to say.daveyboy.

  367. Wow! Great article phooph. Info. on the Korean CDC was most interesting, as well as the Entecavir. Thank you again Hip.

  368. Oh! Now I remember Hip had a post regarding this guy that did the transplant sometime ago. Well both are interesting.

    Bless you all and many thanks.

  369. davey boy,

    no, borax is not bleach at all, they just stock it on the same shelf…

    i use a pinch of plain ole 20MuleTeam Borax dissolved in warm water… just had to do it again today becoz the crusting and “pickordie” feeling was back- it always helps me & my son who has the same issue. our noses are colonized with Staph A., a culture showed it isnt mrsa but i refuse to do antibiotics- who wants to gamble?? so its borax for me

    the proper name is Sodium TetraBorate (Decahydrate)…. this is NOT the same as Boric Acid, so please dont mix the 2 up. check out everything Ted From Bangkok has to say on the subject at EarthClinic.com…

    hope that helps. if you try it, please write back with your results

  370. I am starting to get the feeling that this condition will not be given adequate attention by the medical community until groups of us start dying in small geographical areas and some medical professional will take tissue samples and say…”would you look at that, it was an infectious illness.”

  371. Borax zinc flouride

    we used 20 mule team borax when I was a kid. Mom swore by it for bathing and washing clothes.

    I caught some info on floride – bad stuff. I live in an area where the city dumps it into our water supply on purpose . Though its POISON they continue to praise the benefits. Cannot get rid of it from the water. We don’t drink it or brush our teeth with it but the skin absorbs it easily and it gets into the blood system even by showering or bathing. Does anyone know any neautralizing agent?

    My husband has psoriasis (spelling) and swears by ZINC OXIDE. Best percentage other than prescription that I’ve found is baby rash ointments; check the label. Great for sunscreen and “age spots” or “liver spots” and its cheap. Also vitamin E capsules smeared on liberally (at night) or dropped into the bathwater helped me with the age spots too. I also made evening arm bands from old pantyhose to hold in the moisture while I slept – – no crepe paper wrinkles (temporarily). Not too romantic I know, but I’m past that now. Thanks for listening.

    I got age spots when I was in my late 20s – heredity, so 40s is not too young.

  372. The borax sounds interesting. I occasionally have the thick mucous return when I am having an allergy attack. Will try adding it to my sinus rinse solution. Borax is from mineral deposits.

    Zinc and Vit. C are critical to wound healing and immune function.

    This condition will start to get attention when some drug company thinks they can develop a treatment. HIV went neglected till it was seen as a potential market. First step is to ID it. Then the campaign to attack it begins.

    Floride was illegal to dump into lakes, streams, and estuaries because it is a cumulative toxin and became a disposal nightmare till someone realized it could be sold as a cavity preventative.

    The theme here is profit. Profit rules. ; )

  373. hi portlandchic,yes i will try the borax, thanks hopefully it may give some relief ,i have had a nasal swab done recently which showed normal flora though.

    went bck to the endocrineologist earlier,

    he says i have vitamin d deficiency,25 oh vit d total 25.00 nmol/l.

    he said this should be 75.00.

    ive to get vitamin d tablets from my doctor and take them for a few months then be retested,if my level doesnt go up he will look at it again.he also recomended having my thyroid rechecked but was very vague in answering my questions and to be honest i feel he was most certainly not the right person to see in my case i feel id have benefitted seeing somone more thorough,and someone who actually wants to help more.

    does anyone know the effects of vitamin d deficiency besides bone problems can it cause other problems eg immune system problems ect,also should i be looking into other deficiences too?thanks daveyboy.

  374. For the depression or lack of energy problem, I find that the blood purification device helped. It was in 2009, I am desperately tried different medicine, antifungal, antibiotics, juicing fasting, liver flush etch, all to no help. I gradually found people using electrical device to fight virus, one of the main device is blood pulsation device, designed by bob beck.

    The silver pusler is the same as bob beck device I purchased from sota instruments. I use it together with the ozonator (from the same company) for a month, and the mood get dramatic improvement. However, the skin on my wrist was not a pretty picture due to the electric probe touch.

    Silver pulser and ozonator, Using the code CA50021 you can get first order at 10% discount sota:


    I also bought the magnet pulser from the same supplier,but only used a few times and did not notice much difference.

    Other device I have tried, is the hulda clark electrical zapper. I purchased a few on ebay, and it basically use low frequency electricity to target killing of microorganism.

    After I felt better, I got complacent, and gradually stopped use it, my itching and biting, pin and needle still show up. But I am not feeling like a zombie any more, and my energy level can pretty much up to the 95% of previous level.

    Now what bother me most is hair loss, itching, wrinkle skin due to loss of subcutaneous fat, and skin rash, secretion of very sticky saliva (especially during eating), serious bloating/ flatulence, pin and needle feeling.

    I have hard time to decide if this is caused by virus, or by resistant fungus. It definitely can affect people via air, (proof of air borne spore or virus). I notice my coworkers show similar problem. if it was virus, it is hard to believe that it can accumulate in the air and affect your skin (I had several experience in feeling strong pin feeling when I touch clothes or quilt). all the symptom of sticky mucous, felt worse after eating high sugar food, bloating, etc, make me think that this is not caused by virus, rather than living organism.

    I have had tested negative for HSV II, only trace of epsein bar virus (doctor were saying it was remnant of infection in teenage, and not indicative of current status)

    Has anyone know a reputible place test cokasakie virus? I mentioned this to my physician but she is not aware of any lab of doing it.

  375. Just find out the following news:




    I think the morgellon is the most similar to the symptoms, except the fibre, which nobody on this board is having.

    But the medical expert really don’t have a clue as to what is going on, the only way for them to find out is that themselves having such conditions to prove the symptoms was not psychological.

  376. Problems with wound healing are connected to systemic collagen damage, but not to Zinc and Vit C.

    It looks like that there is increased consuption of Vit C exist.

    Maybe because of constant collagen damage there is a constant need to synthes new for repair(vit.C is used in this process).

    But hypervitaminosis of Vit.C can lead to immunodeficiency and deficiency of B-group vitamins. This is very “thin statics”.

    Better to remove constant collagen damage than use overdosage of vit. C.

    Swine flu is medical fake\fraud.

    Just huge gloge business cheat\trick.

  377. hey kozak,, that medical fake/fraud landed my younger son in the emergency room with a dangerously high fever!

    i expect youll disagree but it is what it is & swine flu is NOT a ‘fake’ disease, in my family we all had it a year ago & it was gnarly. and just like the dr said, the youngers definitely got hit worse than the olders. i just hope we’ve got some immunity built up now against that strain.

    thanx daveyboy for posting that vid- so informative! i finally feel like i understand what happened when we got sick last year, i love this doctors way with analogy, he paints a great picture of the immune reaction thats actually easy to understand.

  378. @kozak: the need for zinc and Vit C for wound healing is well established even in medical manuals, although I find it tends to be ignored in medicine. Most Vit C available is of poor quality. The L form of C is the one we need but most Vit C contains a higher ratio of the D form. Some of the L form will oxidize into the D form in the body. The D form is thought most likely to cause problems when people take high doses. Glutathione will convert D back to L in the body. Most animals manufacture their own Vit C in amounts that would be considered megadoses for humans.



    Regarding electric blood purification devices, you can build your own for a few dollars with instructions found at this yahoo group. http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/microelectricitygermkiller/?yguid=43916273 They also have an advanced group for electricity geeks with plans for fancier devices.

    I have a 6 volt lantern battery to which I hitch up devices I have made for treating various body parts and have found that I can now wipe out a sinus infection and bronchitis (they usually hit me after a cold) within days, and much faster than if I take antibiotics. I combine it with colloidal silver which I now make myself. My last great success was eliminating a very bad gum infection and tooth abscess.

  379. hi,

    yes i agree swine flu is no medical fake

    obviously people have died from it

    been to my nhs doctors today and got some vitamin d tablets.

    sheseemed to know so little about vitamin d deficiency and how serious it can be,looks like theyve suceeded in doing the usual,treating the problem but not the cause and i guess i only realy have half a diagnosis.

    ill go bck to my private gp and see what he has to say,he told me they needed to find out why this was happening not just cover it up.daveyboy.

  380. Pople always die.

    They die in miost cases just from usual flu\cold.

    And in most cases this is cold, but not flu (i.e. no virus connection). Just simple cold, then pneumonia and game over. Nothing special.

  381. nothing special?,people dying is nothing special?,its this attitude which helps progress in medacine isnt it lol,are you a gp kozak? because you sound suspiciously like one to me.daveyboy.

  382. TO: Daveyboy

    Yes, that swine flu video you posted explains H1N1 swine flu well. In the 1918 pandemic of H1N1 Spanish flu (where 20 million died), and which is very similar to H1N1 swine flu, the healthy were hit hardest.

    It was people’s immune systems that killed them, and so it seems often the fitter and stronger you are with H1N1, the more your immune system causes damage.

    For this reason, in swine flu, THE LAST THING YOU WANT TO DO IS TAKE IMMUNE-BOOSTING SUPPLEMENTS. These may well make the a H1N1 infection worse, because the immune system will then attack your tissues even more.

    So the Siberian ginseng (an immune booster) you are taking may not be a good idea, if you do have H1N1 Daveyboy.

    But antivirals are fine, and I think you may do well on those neuraminidase inhibitor antiviral herbs. You can also get Tamiflu (a neuraminidase inhibitor) by mail HERE.

  383. hip,can you find out for me if theres anywhere in the uk i can be tested for swine flu,ive searched and searched and found nothing,also will it be a bad idea to bring my vitamin d levels back up?im assuming it will be highly beneficial.thanks daveyboy.

  384. @daveyboy

    check statistic how much peole die from USUAL cold\flu complications like pneumonia etc.

    You know, people have a bad quality to die sometimes from diseases.

  385. @kozak,yes a bad quality of care,its unnaceptable but the med proffesion seem to think its acceptable. maybe i should start naming and shaming all the useless gp,s and dismissive specialists ive seen.daveyboy.

  386. @daveyboy

    I don’t think that most of specialists you have seen are dismissive.

    Most of them probably just don’t know what wrong with you.

    And if they are not telling you that you have some strange enterovirus this is doesn’t mean they are dismissive.

    They know that all usual disease is not your case, but they also don’t where and how to look out of box.


  387. I don’t know about a specific test for H1N1, but TDL Pathology (in London & Manchester) do an Influenza Screen from a blood sample. I assume this “Influenza Screen” means they will see if you have the influenza A virus, or the influenza B virus, in your blood.

    All those H something N something flu viruses like H1N1, H5N1, etc are all types of influenza A virus, so this test will cover any type of H?N? influenza virus.

    Ask your doc to send this TDL lab a sample of your blood.

    Vitamin D should be good, as lack of vit D increases the inflammatory chemical called TNF-alpha. TNF-alpha needs to be inhibited, as it drives the inflammation / fibrosis.

    Herbs that block TNF-alpha might be good too. Cat’s claw herb powerfully lowers TNF-alpha.

  388. hip your an expert in searching the web thanks,manchester isnt verry far from me,i could drive there in about 50 mins.

    looks like they do respirotary viral testing too im going to ring them tommorow and speak with them,if they can help me with some testing ill get my private gp to take the bloods on friday.thanks very much hip.

    kozak im making no excuses for the incompetence of the people ive seen,im sorry but theres no excuse for 5 years of this madness,lets say for instance i was actually failing breathing ect,and in imediate danger of my breathing stopping theyd do every test under the sun to save my life.

    but its taken 5 years to get that bad,and belive me its getting much worse,im not stupid i know theres many more tests can be done,clearly im just not important enough and because im so ill im practically letting them palm me off im too tired to argue and too much in pain and short of breath.

    i cant even get in the bath because everytime i do it feels like ive got pneumonia or severe flu,i have to get a stand up wash at the sink otherwise ill get a bath and be bed ridden for days,i dont even know why that happens,so im clearly verry unwell and in my oppinion i should have been in hospital a long time ago,also i still have swollen lymph nodes and my neck feels swollen,swallowing difficulties sometimes choking on tablets and food,but they dont seem to think my problems are that bad lol and i should have faith in theyre judgement sorry but i know 100% in my heart and mind the med proffession are verry wrong and are 100% faling to treat me theres simply no excuse.daveyboy.

  389. Hey guys long time I see still the same going on here. I decided to share some of the stuff I have been looking into even at the risk of sounding a bit paranoid. I believe the cause of these problems is heavy metal poisoning (Barium And Aluminum) in particular. I believe it comes back to (believe it or not) Bill Gates . Bill Gates? you ask and laugh to yourself , Bear with me here Bill is a believer in Eugenics


    he also funds a few companies that spend billions on “geo-engineering” witch is basically known as Chem-trails


    now if you look up bio-engineering you will see that they are spewing guess what into the air YOU GOT IT (Barium And Aluminum)


    Now if you look into it you will see also that by spewing these into the atmosphere they are in fact blocking off huge amounts of vitamin D witch we absorb from the sun in addition to this you will see that vitamin D or lack f it causes, again guess what YOU GOT IT immune dysfunction (sound like anyone) besides the heavy metal poisoning you can have huge immunity problems and reactivated viruses

    I can tell you that the Drs know all about this and will not test you for it!! I will let you all dig further into the rabbit hole to answer why

  390. not feeling too positive right now. I have over 50 of those brown spots and they are growing. I’m going in a little less than two weeks to get them biopsied. I think they are melanoma. Also I appear to have entered another exacerbation. I am feeling sick, my skin is considerably more wrinkled and my stomach/bowel problems are back.

    I’m having a hard time believing I’m gonna be ok. The rate of decay is too fast. God there’s just got to be a way to stop this shit.

    I’m getting mad again. Why the hell isn’t this being acknowledged? To be honest Dr. Chia even seems just the slightest bit nonchalant about it. I feel like he didn’t really address the more visible physical symptoms I described, and seemed to disregard my mention of us here as a group. I had intended to ask him about these things with more insistence on my next visit, which is in three weeks.

    Really sick of this shit. Like seriously over it.

  391. Hip,

    Are you aware of any vegetables with antiviral properties? I know broccoli is one. I make fresh vegetable juice and thought if there were several kinds of veggies that had those properties maybe I could make some super antiviral blend. Dumping something like that into the stomach might be really good for this.

  392. hey e, dont lose heart–u get sicker faster when that happens!

    keep pumping those sooper green veggies into the juicer, especially cabbage, & celery and dont forget carrots and ginger too. can you grow or get ahold of real homegrown or heirloom tomatos? i dont mean those wimpy tasteless things in the store, i mean a REAL TOMATO? slice them & serve with basil, garlic & olive oil- cancer fighting/ immune boosting caprese salad!

    for herbal seasoning do you have any rosemary or fennel growing where u are? how about red clover, for tea? and use lots & lots of garlic… one of my regular snax these days is buttered rykrisp with fresh garlic sliced on top. the butter buffers the garlic acids nicely but whoa does it leave you with dragon breath! great for scaring away vampires… and spouses…

    DONT substitute margarine, that stuff will just kill u faster.

    how about kale & parsley, u know- those little garnishes no one ever eats? and any kind of herby green makes an awesome pesto- try blending up a batch of cilantro pesto with raw brazil nuts for selenium, raw pumpkin seeds for zinc… and dont forget the garlic :) oh and u know all that rind that always gets chucked from the melons & oranges & grapefruits? -peel out & eat the white part from the inside first, that stuff is a powerful immune strengthener and Recent Studies (well glory be!) have even showed what folk medics have known forever: it fights cancer.

    every one of these and more are excellent purifiers and a number of them actively fight all the yuck: viruses AND bacteria/fungus/cancer/parasites/etc. i am with FloridaFam, there is definitely more going on here than “just” this virus… there’s a lot more bad stuff, i mean- EXPONENTIALLY- in our air, soil, water, these days… plus all the unnecessary chems added to our foods.

    gize, we’re on the right track with this kind of thinking… the more poison we can pump out of our overburdened bodies, it stands to reason, the better our poor faltering immune systems can do battle with this virus!

  393. Seriously look up Barium And Aluminum poisoning you will see all these symptoms listed here even the mental symptoms and at least give it a try I have heard that vinegar will dissolve the barium and there are plants that help heavy metal detox then you need 5000 iuds of vitamin D daily I hear if you use krill oil to it will help also give it a try and let me know it is the regimen I intend to try

  394. floridafam…

    you are preaching to the choir with me :)

    yes i do quite believe chemtrails are responsible for more illness than we know or might be ready to believe- we have tons of the stuff in our skies where i live and it is definitely changing the quality of the light in this northern latitude, to say the least. not nearly so many what i call Shiny Days- i have only lived here for around 8 years, before that i came from an area that was nearly always sunny- but smoggy as heck! moving up here, an amazing change, becoz while it seems to rain most of the time, when the sun is out its instantly Bright and Sparkling everywhere.

    but more and more we have a faint pale coloured haze obscuring the mountains which were not long ago so sharp & clear, the air no longer smells sweet as it did a few years ago, now to my chemically-sensitive smeller it always seems stale and pungent with exhaust- we have a lot more vehicles than we did but there is also a different quality to this new smog than i was used to down south. and that different quality ends up coating every thing in a faint white powdery dust every time the rains stop for more than a day or two.

    believe me, i am allready watching my son carefully for signs of trouble breathing setting in again! this year weve had lots of extra rain, but summers dry days are just around the bend.

    i guess they had just begun doing the chemtrail spraying becoz they would be clearly visible in the sky, but just a few, not all the time. a few years ago, maybe 3-4?- they really stepped up the spraying, and for 2 years now my son who has reactive asthma has had attacks that sent him to emergency for help. he reacts to air pollution, ive never yet seen him react to anything else. so, 2 years ago, there were wild fires on the other side of the state, and what u call an inversion layer causing particles to drift all the way up here. it was bad, you could see the purply smog typical fro a wild fire.

    but last spring we had another inversion layer and there were no fires anywhere, and he still ended up having another bad attack. thats when i started REALLY suspecting the chemtrails & paying attention, doing research.

    yes they are loaded with Barium & Aluminum and a lot more besides: Manganese (we believe its an essential mineral, but more than trace amounts is a Crazy Maker- steps up irritability and irrationality) and Fluoride which weve been talking about are two of the ones ive been trying to learn about.

    my son had to undergo metals chelation a few years back, he was too high in Lead & Merc… interestingly, post chelation Aluminum levels had doubled. our naturopath explained that aluminum ‘hides’ behind other metals, it has less of an affinity to the chelating agents and is harder to draw out so it shows up more when other metals are no longer there to mask it.

    Aluminum & Fluoride both cause lots of problems with Vitamin & Mineral absorption, as they block the necessary receptors. Aluminum makes for nerve disorders becoz it targets the brain & nervous system. Fluoride is a salt rather than a metal, and it builds up in bones & the pineal gland, among other places. it takes up all the space needed for Calcium, Vitamin D, and other essential bone nutrients, ultimately weakening bones especially lower spine & hips, later other bones especially neck & shoulders.

    Aluminum can be detoxed using all the Deep Greens, ie Chlorella, Astragalus, & Cilantro are all excellent detoxers.

    Fluoride doesnt show up on the usual tests, ive heard there is one but i’ll bet its hard to find & expensive. IMJadedO. but if you drink tap water, live under chemtrails, use nonstick pans &/or make bone broth from conventionally raised poultry (which i did for years, not knowing better – but take a good look at those poor sad chicken bones to see Classic Fluorosis guys!) its a good bet that u have WAY too much fluoride in your system. and heaven forbid you swallow your toothpaste like i did as an ignorant kid (yes i have faint brown marks to show for it- my teeth used to be so sensitive as a kid too & no one knew why!) oh and Conventionally Grown Grapes & Black/Green & Red Teas are all LOADED with fluoride becoz of agricultural chem farming practices & those crops soak the fluoride out of the soil.

    Fluoride has to be detoxed by something weighty enough to push it out, so there are not many minerals able to do the job. the 2 best i believe are Boron (why im using Borax- but DONT use Boric Acid by mistake, it will poison your liver/prostate) and also Iodine. but detox effects are difficult, Fluoride is very stimulating to the adrenals as it gets sucked from your tissues… go slow and experience a nice lift to your energy levels but go too fast and you will feel like youve gone bipolar overnite. this detox just cant be rushed. your skin may also break out from eliminating Bromide, in the same family of minerals.

    i highly recommend anyone thinking of Detox, EDUCATE YOURSELF FIRST on the pros & cons, the pluses & side effects, becoz what you dont know can certainly kill you! or create brand new issues you didnt have before, and youll have to use valuable time, energy & resources to correct your mistakes. its complicated!

    2 excellent websites are at http://www.earthclinic.com and the detox boards at http://www.curezone.com- read everything you can find!

    Florida Fam i am excited that you are going to try detoxing- my prayers are with you on this journey!

    thank you for sharing about vinegar dissolving barium, that would be Raw Apple Cider Vinegar (with the Mother) and NOT white vinegar btw. white ‘vinegar’ is actually only acetic acid & not something we should be putting in our body. it has absolutely zero health benefit & is actually quite damaging. interestingly, ive been using Raw Apple Cider Vinegar for about 6 or 8 months, to combat the digestive troubles ive been having- it really helps! i just pour a splash into every cup of herb tea, i have very low stomach acid so it rarely bothers me, but if you are acidic and find it burns, just neutralize by adding a pinch of baking soda too.

    oh and Carlsons Cod Liver Oil is an excellent pure source of vitamin D

    Cheers! please post all your progress!

  395. portlandchic yes you are correct about the fluoride also it is toxic and does much harm I know it is hard to believe but all these things are being done to us on purpose believe it or not. This is where everyone thinks I am nutz and have lost my mind LOL but after MUCH researching (and it is not hard to prove since the parties involved even brag about it) I have discovered there are a few elite ultra rich people who want %80 of the population to lay down and die , literally! I do not wish to get to involved with it here now but if you want to research a little there are some topics you could look into like (REX 84 and FEMA CAMPS the Gorgia guidstone FEMA coffins the new Madrid fault HAARP) just to name a few but think about it if you wanted to reduce the population what better way then to cause every one to have immune dysfunction and then release you killer virus when no one could fight it off anyway I don’t want to look like a conspiracy theory kind of guy but there is something quite Biblical about all this if you are intrested in more then let me know on here and I will send you my email thanks and good luck

  396. @ floridafam

    I hate to say it but I am right on board with your though process. No other reasoning imo could explain so many sick people with so little recognition or action.

  397. hehehehehehahahahahahaha

    …except, reading between the lines with some sort of live tinkered-with virus in mind, sorta makes a person wonder if there could possibly be something specific in the works? oh horrors, perish the thought!! :P

    floridafam & e, i quite agree with your assessments… sure id like to continue the discussion via email (unless we could wheedle yet another side chatboard off you Hip? could be a good thread to keep following, secondary yet still relevant to our common viral situation… pretty plees? :)

  398. Hip if you would be so kind as to pass on my e-mail to e and portlandchic I would be much appreciative thank you:)

  399. Oh and E i do hope you have packed your zombie survival kit make sure to include a chainsaw (no one ever remembers to bring a chainsaw)

  400. TO: floridafam

    I have passed your email to portlandchic.

    I must say, I cannot understand how you people can fall for the science fiction nonsense of “chemtrails”, and similar crazy stuff that is found all across the Internet.

    But I have to admit your chainsaw comment was very funny, floridafam.

    TO: E

    Ginger I find is a good antiviral vegetable; makes a nice spicy soup, and also thins the blood, which improves blood flow. Let’s hope that your exacerbation in symptoms is the predicted exacerbation that oxymatrine creates before you suddenly start becoming better.

  401. @ HIP you ever go outside and look up anymore? and when you see enough smoke there is probably a fire like I said I dont want to bring it here but maybe you should read up on oh say the Rothschilds and the Rockefellers they brag about it in there memoirs

  402. also Hip they now freely admit to chem-trails in fact the UN just legalized them and if you look up Geo engineering that is what they are calling it now so so much for sci fi buddy it is real and in your face now

  403. I don’t mind if you speculate in all this stuff. There are occasionally some metaphoric truths in these stories.

    My concern is that these stories can make this site look as if it is also just some wild science fiction story. So it actually does harm to the cause of taking this virus seriously.

    The best solution is to put all this imaginative stuff on another page on this site, as portlandchic suggested.

    So I have just created a new page on this blog, called “Active imagination”, that you can use to discuss these chemtrail stories, and similar stories. The new page is here.


    You need a password to access this new page, and the password is ] (that is, the right square bracket symbol, usually found next the the return key).

    The reason for using a password-protected page is that it stops Google from including that page in Google’s index.

  404. Hip u are awesome :) thanx for the new page!

    we will try to restrain our “active imaginations” to that page (sorry, its hard sometimes when unravelling so many of life’s nastier mysteries)

    …looks like u and Kozak have something u can agree on anyway he he :D

  405. Well, I enjoy the company of all you guys, and I’d miss you if you didn’t write.

    I hope you don’t take offense when I have to play the “moderator” role like this.

  406. @ Hip

    Not at all! You know I totally support keeping this page as legit and on topic as possible. If you recall I was getting frustrated with the rhetoric here for a bit many months ago.

    Better to keep it filled with fact and personal experience so that if the time comes that a doctor actually says “Hey look at this forum full of sick people with all the same strange symptoms” maybe they will be more inclined to try and help us.

    REPLY: That’s it, and also for individuals that may have this virus that have just arrived here. If the comments section reads like a sci-fi movie, sure, it’s greatly entertaining, but I think it might seem odd to some people. So we should keep this page for symptoms, labs test, drugs or herbs that may help, and even just general moans and groans, but all just sober stuff.

    The new page is where everyone can discuss imaginative, metaphorical, sci-fi concepts, conspiracy theory, etc.

    – Hip

  407. This is so important, to so many. This is how we all found that we were not alone in this, and you must realize there will be others. I know I am not much help, but when I was scared and needed to talk and try to find out things, things that would help and bring relief, I landed here. It has been the most informative and comforting place to go.

    Many blessings,



    I have just set up a new voting poll questionnaire on this site, that asks readers the question: Do your own symptoms match those listed on this site?.

    You might all like to vote in this new poll. If you go to the top of this main page of the site, and then scroll downwards a few page lengths, you will see the new questionnaire neatly fitted into the righthand margin of this page.

    It’s a multi-choice questionnaire.

    One vote per person.

    I’ve already voted.

  409. ok my vote’s in :)

    i couldnt vote the top one becoz i dont have certain symptoms ie the psychoemotional piece doesnt seem to fit, nor so far the hipgirdle weakness (altho shoulders have gotten crackly & legs have some circulation issues now), and the chronic soere throat seems to have cleared up…

    but ive got every thing else, right down that list! plus a couple other things have popped up recently that i am wondering are they connected, ie, mild dyslexia in typing & speaking, i get words & letteers scrambled & have to go back to correct meself quite often, and a persistent throat-clearing that i hear now all the time from others as well, its like the mucous from a milk allergy but i dont drink milk. my son & his best buddy both have that also. lately i keep choking on crumbs or liquids too, very infuriating!

    …for a LONG time i have/had chronic nasal inflammation with redness like the sore throat thing, im noticing tho recently that the inside of my nose looks much more normal & healthy pale like it should (i credit the borax swabs for that blessing :) what a relief becoz i was starting to worry just a little about the potential for nasal cancer…

    hip i am soooo soooo thankful for you & all the hard work you have put in on this board, it is truly amazing to see so many seemingly ‘unrelated’ issues & symptoms compiled in a list that is applying only too wel to more & more folks all the time… you really have stumbled onto something big, i do believe, & i thank Creator for the wisdom & insight HE has gifted to you- you have used it so well & most or all of us would feel hopelessly lost without this board as our resource. i doubt i could have ever connected all the seemingly random dots in such a coherent way, i just havent got the kind of brain power it takes!

    well anyway, the thing i want to check in with yall about right now is the dental issues… have any of you found effective strategies for halting the gingivitis once it gets going?

    i wrote awhile back about having solved the plaquey buildup by switching to baking soda, and stopping the gum irritation with peppermint extract…. about 6-8months later i had to switch to Rosemary Oil becoz my gums on my side teeth had started receding again. this strategy worked beautifully until i got pneumonia last month, that changed several things up again that had finally gotten somewhat stabilised…

    now my FRONT teeth have begun receding, as of today i just cannot deny it anymore, its visible to my own eyes. and i can FEEL the puffy inflammation inside my teeth, if that makes sense to any of you. Rosemary oil still helps, i dont have the inflammation anywhere yet except my top front teeth but i need some new ideas for getting it stopped again! interestingly, i still have absolutely NO PLAQUE, which makes me think that there is only correlation between the two conditions & not direct causation as dentists have always taught/been taught. (ironically, my 73yr old dad has awful diabetic plaque but very little gingivitis…the exact opposite)

    any tips anyone wants to offer will be dutifully tried by moi! ive decided to start enjoying my raw garlic/cod liver oil snax again to see if that calms anything down- cant hurt anything but my romantic life …. which of course would go caput if my teeth do drop out anyway, so whats to lose eh? :)

  410. oop, looks like my comment is the first on a new page… talk about confusing!

    sorry gize, u will have to look back one page for this post to make much sense

  411. It’s OK, it starts a fresh new page after every 500 posts. The previous page is still there, if you click on “Older Comments”, which is found by the comment box.

    I’ve also got serious problem in typing, but not so much in speaking. In every sentence I type, as much as one third of the words contain typos, spelling mistakes, grammar mistakes, or even even repeated words (like that).

    I use the spell checker to correct the words, or if that does not work, I retype them. The letters of a word I type just often come out in the wrong order, crazy as that sounds. This constant correcting makes typing a real drag. But there you go.

    QUOTE: “Receding gums: interestingly, i still have absolutely NO PLAQUE, which makes me think that there is only correlation between the two conditions & not direct causation as dentists have always taught/been taught.

    Wow! You are really starting to think like a scientist! Very impressive. And it is a good observation.

    This virus causes inflammation, and it is likely this inflammation is the cause of the gum receding. Inflammation can increase collagenase levels, an enzyme that eats the collagen in the gums. At the same time, as this virus is also immunosuppressive, this viral infection is allowing oral bacteria to proliferate, but as you say, the oral bacteria may not be the cause of the receding gums at all (or might just be a minor cause, but the major cause is the inflammation).

    Treatment might involve lowering the gum inflammation and lowering collagenase levels, in order to stop collagen loss; plus perhaps some antibacterial mouthwash for people that do have plaque increase.

    There is a drug called Periostat, that is protective for gums in periodontitis.

    Not many people know that Periostat is just a low dose of the commonly available antibiotic doxycycline. And doxycycline is one those pretty safe antibiotics, with very few side effects (never use out of date doxycycline, though – that can be bad).

    So it is cheaper to buy doxycycline 100 mg tablets, and split the tablets up. Periostat = 20 mg of doxycycline. Normally for antibiotic purposes, you would take one or two 100 mg daily. At this low 20 mg dose, Periostat/doxycycline is probably not going to upset your gut flora.

    And to save even more money, and for convenience, you can buy fish antibiotics, which are exactly that same as the ones for humans.

    The way Periostat/doxycycline works is that, as well as being an antibiotic, Periostat/doxycycline also lowers collagenase, the enzyme that dissolves collagen.

    By the way, in biology, anything that ends with an -ase is an enzyme.

    So elastase is the enzyme that dissolves elastin (the elastic fibers of the skin). And collagenase is the enzyme that dissolves collagen. Enzymes often build structures, or dissolve structures, in the body.

    The herb curcumin also helps lower gum inflammation, and lowers collagenase. Curcumin is pretty potent herb. So perhaps a combo of curcumin plus doxycycline might do wonders for gums health.

    I haven’t looked too much into this gum situation, but will try to do some further researching on this subject, and post up the info. My receding gums are getting worse, so I also need to do something too.

    I am very glad you like this site, but I really don’t think the info here is anything unique. Nor is this virus, it is not that different to other viruses that are linked to CFS.

    Have you ever seen this superlist of CFS symptoms? I copied this list from another CFS web site, because it was the best symptoms list I have ever seen, covering all the really odd, unusual and obscure little symptoms that can appear when you have CFS – like symptoms that you did not know you had until you read them!

    But this symptoms superlist just shows what CFS is really like, for so many people.

  412. I have had all the symptoms. I not sure when it all started. The last 4 months I have been more aware mainly because the onset of anxiety. I have found tea tree oil clears the strange deep pimple very quickly along with polysporin if your skin become dry from the TT oil. You just need a dap. I use it also for my ears twice a day. I have liquid in my ears and ringing constantly. I started putting a drop on the back of a spoon and rub it on my tongue, keeping my mouth open, I wait a few minutes then run cold water over my tongue and rinse. (it is not good to swallow to much TT oil) This is helping with the constantly whitish/yellow tongue. The smell can be unpleasant for some. My husband calls it “man repellant” I tell him I’m going to write to the company and let them know they need to add another fine use for TT oil in their book of “many uses for TT oil.” I also use it as a sinus steam. 5 drop in a bowl of boiling water and a towel over your head breaks up the thick white mucus. TT oil is an anti virus, anti bacteria and anti fungus that has been around for centuries. It is available everywhere and inexpensive. I have found organic virgin coconut oil heals the dry wrinkle patch on my skin. I also cook and eat coconut oil instead of butter. Is taste SO good and has an anti bacteria property called lauric acid. I take a high grade probiotic, acacia (soluble fibre for the digestion problems stops the noises etc called heather’s tummy fibre} krill, lipo-flavonoid (ear doctors vitamin for inner ear health) astaxanthin and olive leaf. My diet is as little processed foods as possible and lots of organic fruits, veggies, wild fish, poultry and free run eggs. I drink lots of water. I don’t like the fact that i drink Fuji water (because environmental reason) I was drinking so much water and our tap water is horrible, I had no other choice. My symptoms are not completely gone but manageable. I have hope again most days. God bless

    REPLY: You have got a good regimen going there, netter. Do you think that the coconut oil repairs the skin wrinkles?

    – Hip

  413. Hello Hip- I am a 40 year-old female, and I have been having symptoms of the Sore Throat Virus for a few years. I notice that every month I usually only get one “good” week of normal feeling.

    The feeling I get when sick is just wanting to be in bed from the time I get up. My joints hurt, arms fall asleep while in bed, even if I am not lying on them. To deal with people at work, I have to fake happiness toward them and put-on. It is truly a push to be at work. My insides feel a physical ache, sore throat, then usually a bad cold sore. I do have herpes 1 & 2, but usually only get a facial cold sore.

    My body feels hot and uncomfortable, my mind cannot put two and two together and I come across as dumb when speaking, even though I used to be very articulate.

    I feel like I am in a fog.

    My skin on my neck and tops of hand are what scare me as well, to see it in physical form makes me wonder what is going on inside my body. My hands now have extra thin skin and it looks like they are 80 years-old. My neck skin is the same now. I slather vitamin e on night and day. I have just started propolis and grape seed, as well as lysine. Is there anything that will help the skin or is the damage done. Would any treatment get me back to normal?

    Please email me back. An thank you for your informative site. If anyone else has suggestions or comments please feel free to email me.

    REPLY: I know what you mean about having to fake a good mood, in order to deal with people. I often then feel really shattered and exhausted after social contact, and need some quiet tranquility to recover my own self. These are, unfortunately, common symptoms in people with chronic fatigue syndrome, if that is what you might have. The brain fog is a major problem in CFS. Some people find high dose sublingual vitamin B12 (5,000 mcg) works wonders for treating the brain fog. (The methylcobalamin form of B12 is best for this purpose).

    I have found that a saturated solution of epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) rubbed into the skin daily all over the body does significantly improve the skin quality as far as any redness / eczema skin symptoms are concerned, but does not improve the fine wrinkles. Using epsom salts in this way does also give your body a very nice dose of magnesium, which will help with creating calmness.

    My guess is that the skin wrinkles are not permanent, and may well clear up and repair if the process that is continually degrading the elastin in the skin were halted.

    – Hip

  414. ha ha, you like my fancy scientificky words in that last post, hip? i guess i can still sound smart sometimes :) he he he

    but you shouldnt put yurself down so much when people offer kudos on this board… it is TOO unique! over the years ive looked on lots of other boards for the chemically sensitive, CFIDS, autoimmune, etc in tracking down whats going on with my family, and the main reason i am posting here instead of somewhere else is becoz this board is both easy to read and well reasoned, also coherent conversations, good sound research, and everything is compiled in a way that makes good sense to the way my brain works… especially with the reading comprehension/short term memory issues i seem to have developed over the past several years!… i still forget everything, but when i am on here, i GET IT, and thats saying a lot.

    the only thing this board lacks, and i know u cant do anything about it, is a good keyword search function- but maybe thats just as well becoz lots of times i’ll be scrolling back over old posts looking for one thing and get reminded of lots of other things id forgotten, and then i end up making or revisiting all sorts of new or lost connections, and it goes from there… i guess i am trying to say that your board never fails to stimulate my tired confused brain to function a little better than before …i always leave here feeling empowered rather than overwhelmed :)

    oh & i forgot to mention, the Moderator here is always very patient… :)

    anyway- ENLIGHTENMENT CANDLE FLICKERING OVERHEAD: your whole post about how the whole collagen/elastin/inflammation business works makes so much sense! everything you said i have read before, but no one has laid it out so simply, now i can say i kind of understand….

    and things really lit up when you mentioned Curcumin- ive been taking Turmeric (2-3tsp a day in yogurt) for the gut problems for several months… but i ran out about a week & a half ago, just hadnt gotten to the store for more, and never realized that whats been helping the tum might have been helping the gums too! but the gum puffiness set back in just about a week ago, only a few days after i ran out of turmeric.

    …coincidentally, yesterday morning i had finally been back to the store where i buy my spices and stocked up on turmeric again, so last nite i had my Golden Yogurt bedtime snack again (it always makes my tum feel so much better) which is made with a nice big scoop of Turmeric, op. cinnamon, op. stevia, op. extra probiotics, in a cup of plain wholemilk yogurt…

    this morning i noticed right away my teeth didnt have the “punched mouth” feeling in front but i didnt make the connection until reading your post-

    its the Turmeric! that’s why i havent been having all the dental troubles that a lot of you have mentioned- its keeping the inflammation down in my mouth as well as my gut! as soon as i read your post i went back for another helping of Golden Yogurt and sure enough 2 hours later my teeth feel ‘normal’ again, even more pink, less red! and my tongue no longer has that unpleasant ‘burnt’ feeling which its had for about a week too.

    so everyone, try this remedy & see what happens- if it works as fast on you as it evidently does on me, you should know right away whether its going to help. (a caveat: turmeric is a blood thinner, so may not be safe for those allready using blood thinning pharma… also, can be constipating in the new user so be sure to drink a big glass of water until your gut adjusts)

    also, i am certain that its the rosemary oil which has kept my mouth bacteria minimal, hence no plaque… altho it tries, i hae to scrape my tongue daily and if i forget the rosemary then plaque starts building up within days;

    netter… good to know that TeaTree oil has the same benefit! so good to have options! i unfortuately have an allergy to methylsalicylate so TTO is not an option for me but i have heard that it is powerful stuff. i laughed so hard at your remark about ‘man repellant’ …my hubby feels the same way about my dragonbreath garlic snax :) o well, what can you do? im sure they are happier to have us up & functional than ILL in bed anyway, he he

    olive leaf is another natural antiseptic/antibiotic isnt it? ive also heard that it is powerful but havent tried it yet becoz of concerns about it lowering blood pressure (mine is dangerously low as it is)… what has been your experience with it? any side effects, or effect on your blood pressure?

    hi jess, i had to do a double take when i read your post becoz u sound so much like me! take heart, as far as the emotions go, i think there is a kind of ‘grieving process’ that must be worked through but eventually it will get better if you consistently work toward a constructive approach… i have found that i am constantly in prayer these last couple years, always seeking Creator’s wisdom and peace in a life situation that would otherwise terrify me. resist the temptation to panic, it will only make everything worse, and faster!

    its good you are allready being proactive and searching for answers & good coping remedies. you will have to keep experimenting but you are certainly in good company with all of us here as we are doing the same as you :) …’mom’ mentioned a while ago that she has found nothing consistently works permanently, so a rotational approach seems to be more effective for her. i have to say the more i think on that concept, the more i think it applies to me as well

    i think we are likely stuck with this virus for life, but that said i also think there are a lot of things we can still do to positively impact our levels of health and the speed at which our illness progresses… likewise, ,many bad choices or strategies which will affect us negatively and make things that much worse, that much faster. which i think is really the main reason we are all here: finding out what we CAN do, and what we should AVOID doing…

    like you tho, i also feel the skin damage is the worst part of it for me (ah, vanity) and i havent found a single thing to slow it down- altho read hips last post about inflammation & enzymes, i think its really important altho i dont fully understand by any means…

    has anyone else out there found any good strategies to slow down or even reverse any of the skin involvement?

    i am using a borax wash on my face and neck, and more recently on my arms as well, which seems very effective at knocking down the side infections which constantly (for me anyway) keep cropping up…. oh, and gize, remember i mentioned i thought malasezzia yeast might be behind the bad flaking on my arms? borax seems to be taking care of that just fine :) now we’ll see if the white spots ever get any colour back…

  415. Hip,

    when the comments page rolled over, the most recent comments are unable to be located. In the past month or so, portlandchic recommended putting some zinc substance on open wounds and I was looking for that. Can you please place a page for the recent (old) comments or could portlandchic reiterate what she puts on the wounds to make them heal? Thanks

  416. nevermind the last post. I saw how to see the previous comments and saw that it was you who recommended crushing up zinc supplements. I will also try taking some zinc.

  417. anon, some comments on zinc to help you know how zinc operates in our bodies:

    *Zinc is an essential part of the Cal-Mag-Zinc-Boron combo for bone health. lack of sufficient zinc has a bad impact on the body’s abiltiy to utilize Calcium or Magnesium. i have had magnesium related cardio problems for years- taking magnesium supplements certainly helped but proved to be only a bandaid approach, anytime i missed a day i was sure to experience more nitetime palpitations and low blood pressure issues. plus, as i am chemically sensitive, i react poorly to the additives in most supplements. my son has definite marfanesque tendencies (marfan syndrome is a congenital connective tissue disorder), and i learned that there is a strong connection between adolescent marfan syndrome & zinc deficiency. since the 2 of us have been making a real effort to consume plenty of high-zinc foods, his skeletal development appears to be back on track and my blood pressure symptoms have dwindled. magnesium is powerfully important in many body functions, but the body cant utilize it without sufficient zinc!

    *However, care needs to be used in taking concentrated zinc supplements- too much of a good thing becomes very bad indeed. Zinc is also an essential part of the Zinc-Copper-Iron balancing act, and it is unfortunately very easy to get that all messed up through taking zinc tabs or lozenges. this is one of the reasons, back when zinc cough drops were all the rage, many people suffered a real backlash when they overdid it with the lozenges- the right amount of zinc prevents bacterial overgrowth, while too much zinc in relation to copper along with a surplus of iron = a breeding ground for bacteria, also too little zinc in relation to copper = a whole pile of troubles of its own.

    its like the 3 bears: you dont want too much or too little, just the right amount for your personal body needs. im not saying dont take supplements- im saying BE CAREFUL & LISTEN TO YOUR BODY, back off when you sense that ‘its not working like it had’ or similar instinct surfaces.

    there is lots more to know about the subject, nutrition is an incredibly complex subject… but u get the picture… do lots of research and listen to whatever your body is telling you


  418. У меня такие же проблемы, напишите мне получилось ли у вас найти лечение

    REPLY: Hi gennadiy

    Google Translation from Russian to English: “I have the same problem, please contact me to get there you find a cure.”

    I have emailed you.

    – Hip

  419. well ive been taking the vitamin d for 5 days,i actually feel worse,my lungs hurt more my neck feels swollen and my ive noticed increased lymph node swelling plus my circulation seems terrible.

    i wonder if you can get lmyph circulation problems,also my bones still feel very weak.


  420. hi daveyboy,

    i found this blog:


    i dont know whether the new supplements are whats causing your worse troubles, but it seems your body is definitely sending you a signal about SOMETHING… so, fyi, read & see what u think….

    also u might want to consider the possibiltiy that u could be reacting very strongly to an ingredient used as a filler in your new vitamin… and how much are you taking? there are so many variables… your condition could even be causing a reverse reaction, i forget what that’s called, its not common but my husband gets those: any potential side effect on any given substance he often feels much more than any potential benefit.

    what happens if you back off on the supplement for a few days? that would be a ‘cheep & dirty” way to see if it is your vitamins making u feel worse… if it clears up when u go off, then comes back when u go back on…

    are u taking synthetic vitamin D or getting it from Cod Liver Oil? i use Carlsons pure unrefined cod liver oil in liquid form, and have learned to enjoy the flavor… (it actually makes a great seafood salad dressing, or bread dipper with garlic & rice vinegar added :) …its actually a food and has been safe for me, but i know from plenty of past experience that i would definitely react badly to both synthetic vitamin D with all its fillers, and to cheap refined cod liver oil with its high-heat processing & solvent residues.

    just *sigh* more to consider…

    so sorry you are feeling worse again

  421. hips

    The coconut oil has stopped the wrinkly skin so far. After reading this blog I realized it was the virus causing the patches. I started right away using the coconut oil. It is the best moisturizer I have ever used. I haven’t had anyone tell me I smell like coconut. The smell last a short time after it is applied. (I like the smell myself, makes me feel like I’m on a beach on a tropical island) It is a little expensive, although compared to other skin creams it is a bargain. I have started eating Kefir. I can not say enough about KEFIR. If you have never had or even heard of Kefir google it. I read the book “Kefir rediscovered, The Nutritional Benefits of an Ancient Healing Food” “Let food be your medicine and medicine be your food” Hope this helps …..all of us!

  422. @ gennadiy


    Да, разработка решения будет закончена в течении 3-4 месяцев.

    С уважением,

  423. TO: Daveyboy

    Has any doctor ever suggested that you might have sarcoidosis?

    Sarcoidosis has similar symptoms to your symptoms. And vitamin D often makes sarcoidosis worse – which is what you have experienced.

    There is a theory that a type of of bacteria called mycobacteria are what causes sarcoidosis, and there is successful new experimental treatment for sarcoidosis, called the Marshall protocol.

    I would stop the vitamin D for the moment, if I were you.

  424. thanks for the replies portlandchic and hip,the doctor has never suggested sarcoidosis.

    i tried the lab you sent me today hip,they do not do the blood test for h1n1.

    so im still stuck on that,i have read on numerous sites about the swab test bieng only 70% accurate with lots of false positives and negatives.

    im not sure where to go with this at all,i need the propper blood test for h1n1 i feel to rule it out propperly.

    if you can find anything for me hip would be much appreciated i can find nowhere in the uk that does it.

    been having severe stomach swelling and stomach pains,the only thing that has improved since ive been taking vitamin d is my constipation.

    im reluctant to stop the3 vit d because of my bones,apparently im at risk of my bones breaking.daveyboy.

  425. TO: Daveyboy

    Just get the normal influenza A test, not the H1N1 test.

    If you did have H1N1, which is just a form of influenza A, then your influenza A test should come out positive, as far as I understand.

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