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    • Borna disease virus (BDV) was one of the first viruses I considered after I first caught my virus. I have not been tested though. It can be treated with the antiviral amantadine 200 mg daily.

      As far as I can see, though, Borna disease virus does not cause heart symptoms such as myocarditis and heart attacks, which my virus is very prone to do.

    • Borna or not the antiviral treatment for it cured my anxiety. Unfortunately I had to order it from an online pharm. Borna is neurological and has no test that I’m aware of. The test is to see if the treatment works for all.

    • Thank you for the treatment. I want to ask you, in addition to your symptoms, I have lymph node enlargement and hematology, arthritis and other symptoms. Could it be the virus you’re describing? How do you diagnose the virus in China? I’m also highly suspicious of a gut virus, but not necessarily the virus you’re describing. In addition, how to buy the medicine in your treatment plan, these are all prescription drugs in China. I am now immune to the decline. Can I get a solution if I go to check in England?From a painful Chinese high school student

  1. I have the shingles virus and the glandular fever virus and potentially this virus but I’m not sure if I’ve been tested for enterovorus or not but I fit the symptoms.

    My symptoms are severe sore throat like yours everyday for seven months, swollen glands, pins and needles occasionally , brain fog (was persistent but now it’s more just a feeling of not being on form) headaches at the base of my head constantly , tinnitus. Do you know what anti virals would help me? How do I go about getting them in the UK?

    I’m feeling in desperate need of help :( x

    • Hi Sadgirl

      Do you think you might have chronic fatigue syndrome, which often appears after viral infection? If so, the info in this document may help.

  2. Hip,
    Did you look into the Lyme possibility?
    While l’m asking this question, l’m so far convinced that it can’t be Lyme or a bacteria of any kind.
    However I would like to know your point of view since I’m sure that you did study this possibility.

  3. Good day, All the information on this site is basically a description of the poor excuse that has been my life for so many years. My brains are most affected. I appreciate the treatment options proposed for the various ailments and am wondering if you have any treatment for the skin wrinkling (icing on the cake) and the brown spots. Thank you for this highly informative site. I feel that I finally have found the source of the zillions ailments that have plagued my life.

    • Hi Emma. Glad you find the site useful and informative.

      I have not dedicated much time to looking for treatments for the skin wrinkling, mainly because my other symptoms such a depression, anxiety, anhedonia plus all the chronic fatigue syndrome symptoms are still major problems that I am trying to tackle.

      I think the skin wrinkling is likely caused by a loss of elastin in the skin (rather than a loss of collagen). Four enzymes in the body that can destroy elastin are: elastase, MMP-2, MMP-9 and MMP-12. I think raised levels of one or more of these four enzymes is likely causing the skin wrinkles by destroying the elastin. It is possible to reduce the levels of these various enzymes with supplements.

  4. Thank you for your quick response. I admire the depth of your expertise. I will try to pursue this route with an Ottawa naturopathic doctor.

  5. Good-day to everyone in this site i want to use this means to also tell the world about dr Ogun the man sent to this earth to help those who are in need, i was very sick all this years without solution i have try many means to get my self cured but nothing work out, so today i am here to also tell this to the people in this site that there is cure to this HSV 2, i was able to reach this man through the means of a friend from UK called Sophia but i live in United state, i am very happy writing this,my friend told me that she meet this man personally when she travel to Africa because of this same sickness and i was so surprise to hear that from her, she explain everything about this man cure to me, that there is herbal cure and curing spell and that was the first time i hear about curing spell, so i ask her which of the cure do you go for she told that, it was the herbal cured. she traveled there and she spend 1 week and 4 days with the doctor so before she could know she was cured totally and he decide to go for test over there before traveling back home, her result was negative and even when she get home her result remain negative i was so surprise about what she told me, i have that confidence to contact the doctor, and applied for the herbal immediately so the doctor sent me the herbal here in US, and i used it according to the way the Dr instructed, now i am cured and free from HSV2 if you want to reach this doctor just email him now .
    If you need information about me below is my details Name caro latiteEmail: Country USA.

  6. Hello Hip,

    I did not yet test for Coxsackie but HHV6 was found in my saliva in active replicating form.

    I have and still am wondering if mycoplasma have anything to do with my symptoms, specifically Mycoplasma Fermentans. Have considered this?

    Thanks for your work.

  7. I just wanted to say that, at least for now, and I did not spend too much time on your website yet, – I am leaning towards my skin problem which are exactly like yours – being a bacteria/mycoplasma related condition I also get joint/muscle/bone pain and receding gums.

    I saw you list mouth dryness as a symptom, but do you get slimy saliva and gum pain if you do not brush in the morning? I get this even after brushing and one thing that does seem to help a lot is swishing with H2O2 solution which does make more sense for bacterial as opposed to viral infection. I guess what I am trying to say that in all of these chronic conditions we should not exclude a possibility of different symptoms being caused by different pathogens. Another reason I am leaning in the mycoplasma/bacteria direction is that some species feed on fat and that would make sense in terms of skin condition, because it looks to me that our skin is loosing the fatty layer.

    I am currently dealing with about 70% of symptoms you describe + a thing called PATM (People Allergic To Me). One of the common symptoms that severe cases of PATM people get is very sticky, glue-like skin and slimy/itchy mucous membranes, I wonder if these two conditions could be somehow related.

    Anyhow, thank you, that’s it for now, I’ll be reading more on your website and share if I come across anything new.


  8. PATM (People Allergic To Me) — I had not heard of that before. Has it been validated by a blind test?

    Different pathogens may well cause similar symptoms to those described on this website. In the case of ME/CFS, several pathogens are associated with triggering this disease.

    • Hello,
      If you are asking about PATM being blind validated, unfortunately it is not, it is a condition that doctor’s do not take seriously yet, and a small community of sufferers are working hard on getting resolved.

      There a sister, officially recognized condition called trimethylaminuria, and some people I know have both. I can assure that while not yet officially recognized PATM is a real thing, there are way to many people for all of us to be crazy.

      PATM manifests itself in us, sufferers, causing allergic reaction in other people. So far after years of theories and information research by myself and others it looks like the cause of PATM is a severe degree of intestinal disbiosis. Though still a speculation, overall, most of us have a big shift in our gut flora, with good bacteria missing and non-common bacteria and fungus colonizing our guts, mucous membranes and likely skin.

      The organisms that I and a few others suspect can cause PATM are biofilms producing bacteria – Pseudomonas, Stenotrophomonas, Klebsiella, Serratia, Staphillococus species in symbiosis with some species of fungus, with Aspergius Niger being one of the suspects. Most of PATM sufferers have high titers of mycotoxins in their blood. Big chunk of PATMers have also developed this condition after taking strong antibiotics. The idea is that for one reason or another, the more common, more usual bacteria of healthy human flora get replaced by non-usual not so healthy, but non so benign species, which, do not necessarily cause an acute, but can cause ongoing health issues and cause PATM. How exactly does PATM work? Again a speculation, but both the bacteria and funguses like Aspergillus produce Volatile Organic Compounds and we think that these are the problem.

      After long time of hitting a brick wall with regular docs I decided to go to private labs to prove or disprove this theory and most results are still pending. What I got back so far is a positive test for HHV6 and high Staphylococcus Epidermidis in my nose, which I think might be responsible for constant thick bloody mucous in my notrills and possibly for skin conditions.

      I have recently tested negative for Mycoplasma Pneumoniae/Genitallium/Hominis, Ureaplasma Parvum/Urealiticum also Chlamydia and Chlamydophyla Pneumonae. There a few more Mycoplasmas, like Fermentans, that I wouldn’t mind testing for just in case, but for now I think I am putting these a side.

      Again, I am still to read your website in full, kind of short on time lately, and not trying to dismiss any of your research, but maybe do not dismiss a bacterial infection either.

      I have PATM and 70℅ of you symptoms, including this thing, not PATM, being contagious, so I suspect PATM aside we might have the same problem, I’m just trying to figure out if they are related or not.

      Final thing I am going to say – disbiosis, a replacement of usual body flora by a more pathogenic, is causing more chronic health problems that the current American medical system wants to recognize. This can happen due antibiotics use or colonizing organizms being just good at pushing out the good flora.

      In any case if I come across anything new or my lab results come back with anything interesting – I’ll let you know.


  9. You folks might do some research on Colloidal Silver mixed with DMSO (nebulize, drink, topical) to kill off your viral load. You might also look into MMS (Methylsulfonylmethane) for its Sulfur content (like DMSO), which attaches itself to pathogens. The DMSO is used as a transporting agent to drive the Colloidal Silver deep into all tissues, even bone, and it easily passes through the Blood-Brain Barrier, too. The DMSO is very safe, and has been used for many years to open cell membranes in pathogens that have become resistant to antibacterial, antifungal, and antiviral drugs.

    This is Dr. Stanley Jacob’s website, he is the man who Pioneered DMSO:

    Do a YouTube and Google search on DMSO and MSM, you won’t be disappointed.

    Good luck and best wishes to you all.


  10. I have experienced 95% of these symptoms (and more) for approximately 25 years.
    Chronic Fatigue with Chronic Insomnia changed my life dramatically as has increasing anxiety.
    The skin wrinkling I noticed first on the back of my legs many years ago and then on the back of my hands in about 2013 (Identical to your photo).
    I sort cosmetic treatment for my hands along with the red “V Neck” (2013)(Poikiloderma)

    The skin wrinkling and micro creasing of the skin has progressed rapidly this year (Feb 2017) to my neck, shoulders, chest, inner elbows, and now (March 2017) palms of my hands and tops of my feet.

    I also have progressing facial scarring alopecia (5th year) (Now resembling acne scarring)

    In 2015 I was diagnosed with Osteoporosis (hips) and in 2017 my knees.

    In January (2017) I was diagnosed with Lichen Planus (shoulders to feet).

    I find the skin wrinkling (and scarring) the most distressing psychologically and this leads to extremely debilitating anxiety and depression to the point where I cease to function.

    I have come to terms with always feeling ill and exhausted and a very limited social life (and life) however the skin disorders are the most distressing for me and I am currently seeking a cosmetic solution to this.

    I can no longer work due to the Chronic Fatigue and endless medical problems.

    56 yr old Australian caucasian male.

  11. Hi. I believe this illness is the same as the one on the unknown virus/HIV std thread elsewhere. I believe I have unfortunately contracted this. I am under 25 years old, and I am currently 8 months in since my sexual encounter where everything went wrong after. I am experiencing the shiny, crepe-like wrinkly skin at the back of my hand and the collarbone/chest area. Besides that, I am experiencing foamy urine, white tongue and blurry vision. Have had heavy bouts of muscle twitching but they have since disappeared. I did not have any sore throat pain, enlarged lymph nodes, but the effect on my emotional state of mind has been insane with the brain fog / memory loss.

    Do you have any idea if this will reduce the lifespan? Also, is there any way to manage the foamy urine, white tongue and wrinkled skin?

    Regards, with much thanks.

    • Hi Afflecks

      It’s unclear whether the virus described on this website is the same as the Chinese “HIV-like virus, but with the Chinese virus, usually people become much better after around 1 or 2 years with the virus. I have seen Chinese patients report this numerous times. So if you have the Chinese virus, that is good news in that respect.

      The Chinese virus is described here:

      I have not found anything to help the white tongue and wrinkled skin. I don’t think the virus described on this website will reduce lifespan.

      You might want to see your doctor about the foamy urine; see: . It can be caused by protein in the urine.

  12. I’ve had anxiety for as long as I can remember and I worry about everything so after stumbling across this page while (stupidly I know) searching my symptoms it has terrified me to discover I almost have all of these symptoms described (even down to the dental problems ans fungal skin infections) and I’ve had then for over 6 months now at least. I’m from England and my doctor is terrible so what should I do? Is there anything semi immediate I can do to ease the main symptoms so I’m in a better mental state especially to get further help? Thanks a lot it would mean the world to me to get some advice. Kieren

    • I’ve written a general update with what tests i’ve had so far etc. but it doesn’t appear to be showing up yet so i’ll reply here just in case. I have been taking that for about 2 weeks now and apart from a small reduction in nasal congestion I can’t say it’s doing a lot, I also take flax-seed oil and turmeric for the anxiety as suggested on several sites and a strong (7 individual tablets every day) multivitamin as well with little results. Anything else you can suggest? I’d much rather go and speak to a professional than try and treat myself but very few people especially in England have any idea of what I’m talking about. Thanks for all the help and advice you’ve given so far Hip you’ve done more than any doctor has for me in years.

  13. I am a PhD physicist who has been developing a system of quantum physic for the last 30 years. I caught this virus some years ago and cured myself. I have treated a few other people and they have either been cured or improved significantly. This is not a chance happening, but the result of a systematic program over many years to boost the immune system to eliminate a number of infections, including bacterial, fungal, viral and parasitic infections. I have treatments for a number of other infections which have produced good results. This is a new science and a new healing technology. So I believe I can help other people with this virus. My research (linked to lab tests) suggests that the mood virus is a type of unknown coxsackie virus. By adding boosts to the treatment it can also be used to treat known coxsackie A and B viruses. My website is out of date, and has been censored, but you will learn more information there. Richard

  14. Hello Hip,

    As I have mentioned here before I think that this problem is bacterial rather then viral in nature. I do not have anything to prove or disprove this theory yet, but I have been reading a lot of medical literature including many research articles and combined with some recent anecdotal evidence I think there is something to this hypothesis. I think an atypical Mycobacteria might be the cause behind this disease.

    Would you be open to corresponding on the topic of this problem through e-mail? I would really appreciate your help/input and if we could share some anecdotal information, some things I do not exactly feel comfortable discussing in public guestbook.

    Thanks in advance,

  15. Hi Alex

    I suspect that many people on this site may have different infections (as well as non-infectious conditions) driving their symptoms, so what applies to one person may not apply to another. Your case may well be driven by a bacterial infection, but other people may have a different cause.

    Do you have brain fog and fatigue, and if so, do you meet the CDC criteria for chronic fatigue syndrome? In which case, you would find a lot of help on the Phoenix Rising ME/CFS forum.

    • Hi Hip, thanks for replying,

      I do not have CFS, no brain fog, at least not major. I was thinking about starting a thread on that message board, or even creating a message board dedicated to this/my problem, but for now I am trying to understand which symptoms are and which are not related.

      I am reaching out to you because besides the symptoms that could not be related, I have – wrinkling of the skin, which over the last year has spread to friends and family. Mood issues similar to what you’re describing. This infection has started to cause all kinds of seemingly unrelated health issues in friends and family. My gums have recede drastically over about 1.5 year perioud. and other health issues started appearing which given my age should not be appearing. I do have a subset of symptoms that are quite unique, but comparing to the ones described above – they are of not significant importance.

      Even though I think everyone should be open to alternative perspectives and views to an obscure problems like this, I do not want to be pushing any alternative theories, as I really don’t have any hard evidence yet and maybe it is indeed a C. type virus, I did not test for it yet.

      The main reason for me reaching out to you is because I would really appreciate sharing some of my observations and want to to get you opinion on some of those observations, to compare symptoms and get your thoughts. The reason I’m reaching out to you is because there is not that many people that are spending their efforts on this.

      I understand where you are coming from in saying that many people may have different reasons for their problems, and that might be true, but I want to assure you I am not stubbornly convinced in anything and not trying to persuade you in any alternative view, right now I’d just really appreciate some of your time to see if my observations have any merit and how similar or dissimilar our conditions are.

      Thank you and thank you in advance.

  16. Hi Hip. Regarding the wrinkles, do you only have them at the back of your hand? I notice them especially so along the collar bone/chest area. I’m about 8 months in since my infection. Really worried what will happen in years. Cheers.

  17. hi hip I read this story . what is your thoughts about it ? can we get any benefit for the same treatment.

    Dr. Paul Marik of Eastern Virginia Medical School
    Sepsis is basically a super infection.
    He thought it might help, and since the common steroid hydrocortisone works in a similar fashion, he asked nurses to combine Vitamin C and steroids, and inject them intravenously.
    He then added thiamine (vitamin B-1) to the mix.
    Now, 150 patients have been treated and have recovered
    thank you..

  18. (NOTE: There appears to be problem with my comments being published so if I post more than one comment with very similar wording just delete any duplicates as I can’t see them, thank you.
    Anyway my third time writing this comment:

    Hi just wanted to post a little update on how I’m doing and what “treatments” I’ve done so far, spoiler alert: Nothing is working much and doctors have no idea how to help me. In the last two months I’ve seen three separate GP’s five times in total with little results or explanation for what is causing me to have about 90% of the symptoms listed on this site. I’ve had two blood tests (with one coming back as a high white blood cell count but that was due to an active tonsillitis infection which was easily treated with antibiotics) but otherwise normal and also a chest x ray (not sure why but I agreed to do it for peace of mind) and unsurprising that came back normal as well. I feel like I’m getting nowhere and the doctors I’m seeing have no idea what I’m talking about or how bad my quality of life has become. I’ve tried a lot of vitamins etc. and several of the treatments for the anxiety and mental symptoms in particular all in varied strenghts and combinations with no real changes. I’m at a loss as to what I can do next as I have no idea who to speak to in the UK who will understand the virus I ‘seem’ to have. I’m sorry to grovel as we are all in the same boat but I’m just so tired from it all, the various recurrent infections and mental symptoms mean I literally have no life and haven’t had for a couple of years now and at 19 years old it’s really getting to me. If anyone has any advice at all or wants to talk in more detail ( as I can’t write my whole story/symptoms here in one post) it would mean a lot to me. Thanks for reading my boring post. Kieren

  19. Oh my goodness, I’m sitting here tonight feeling horrid, trying to get a handle of why I feel like this. I dealt with multiple issues for years. Sinuses sit right in the middle of this along with asthma and migraines. As I read your info I keep connecting. I’m going to spend some more time with this. Thank you, Michel

  20. In a nutshell, this is article describes me to an accuracy level of at least 90%. I am speechless right now after reading this. I have to go re read it.

  21. Hi

    after working a motor spares and accessories store i noticed my hands became creppie looking. making my hands look like its 80 something.

    Your feedback would be appreciated
    thank you

  22. Hip, I’ve spoke with you a couple time’s about what my wife and I are going through. I told you about the mold and bacteria that was in my wife’s sputum culture. Now, one more bacteria has showed up and it’s contagious but the doctors are still not treating her. I can’t get them to run no test on me and I know I have what she has tested positive for and we both think we have this SICKNESS also. I have found a place called walk-in-labs where I can order test online and have the test did right here in my home town and get test results online. My question to you is , is there anyway that you can look through the test and tell me what kind of test I should order that might show this sickness and show my doctor’s I really am very sick . Thank you

  23. Hi James, would you say you and your wife satisfy the criteria for having chronic fatigue syndrome (also called myalgic encephalomyelitis), and usually abbreviated to ME/CFS?

    The CDC criteria for ME/CFS are here, and the stricter CCC criteria are here (see page 2).

    There are no lab tests for diagnosing ME/CFS; you need to diagnose on symptoms alone (and also you need to rule out other diseases that can cause the same symptoms before you settle on an ME/CFS diagnosis).

    If you do have ME/CFS, then you can try some of the treatments ME/CFS doctors use, including oxymatrine (boosts the immune system), low-dose naltrexone (also acts on the immune system), high dose vitamin B12 (often helps with the brain fog), the methylation protocol. Most of these you can do yourself without the need for a doctor, provided you read a bit about the treatment. In most cases these do not cure, but sometimes they improve symptoms.

    If you want further info on tests and treatments for ME/CFS, then have a look at the following roadmap document that I compiled:

  24. Would ME/CFS cause the immune system to allow these other bacteria to invade the body ? What ever this is had cause bowel problems , joint and bone problems and we have some color of sputum every day. I have diffuse bilateral bronchial wall thickening which suggests airway inflammatory disease/ bronchitis. a 4 ,5 and 7mm right upper lobe nodule . my wife has tested positive for nocardia , moraxella catarrhalis and mycobacterium avium-intracellulare complex. Would that mean me/CFS ?

    • Increased bacterial and viral infection is common in ME/CFS. Bowel issues like irritable bowel syndrome are common in ME/CFS. Joint pain can be part of the ME/CFS picture, especially pain that is transitory and travels from one joint to the next.

      However, Mycobacterium avium-intracellulare infection (MAI) is not usually part of the ME/CFS picture. According to Wikipedia, MAI treatment requires treatment with a combination of antibiotics for 12 months.Again, for Nocardia, Wikipedia says that antibiotic treatment is usually given, usually for at least 6 months. Again for Moraxella catarrhalis, Wikipedia says that antibiotic treatment is given.

      I can’t understand why your wife is not getting treatment for these infections from her doctors. Can you ask her doctor why she is not being treated? You can show these Wikipedia articles to the doctor, and ask why he is not recommending treatment, when the articles say that antibiotic treatment is necessary. Or perhaps get a second opinion from another doctor.

      Your bronchial symptoms are not part of the normal ME/CFS picture. According to Wikipedia bronchial wall thickening (peribronchial cuffing) can be due to a number of illnesses or conditions, and some of those illnesses, if you look them up, can be caused by various factors, including infections in some cases. Bronchial wall thickening can also be caused by COPD, which I notice you said you had in an earlier post.

      The Wikipedia page on Moraxella catarrhalis above says that this bacterium can infect the lungs, so maybe it might be worsening your COPD, assuming you have this infection also. I read just now that “Moraxella catarrhalis causes approximately 10% of exacerbations in chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD)”.

  25. We were health, living an active life style and all at one these stuff hit us hard . my father was sick ( like I am now) and the doctors told him he was healthy but he never got better and died of a lung infection and stroke. I really think he had what I have now. With in two weeks of his death , I started getting sick and I could feel like a fog creeping over my body. My breathing got so bad I slept in a recliner for nearly two years because I couldn’t lay down. Then I felt it go into my intestines and I hurt so bad that I thought I was dieing. My smell , taste and other senses are almost nonexistent. I get rashes my finger tips bust open. And more that I don’t remember at the moment because it’s ever messed with my mind. Within a year my wife has what I have. Her Pulmonary doctor run sputum test and come up with the test I told you about and my doctor at the same Pulmonary place won’t do a sputum culture on me and says I have asthma . I went to a infectious diseases doctor and he did no test, put no hands on me and says ” if it hasn’t killed me in three years, it isn’t going to”. My wife went to the same infections disease office and the would do nothing for her and talked crap to the Pulmonary doctor that referred her. I can show you these test results and prove I’m telling the truth and we don’t know why no one will do NOTHING TO HELP US. We really feel like this is slowly killing us. I sure wish we knew where to turn!

    • I ordered a blood culture from walk-in-labs today for $119 and went to lab Corp in Asheville NC and had blood drawn . They test for bacteria and fungus . That’s a starting point . I can’t believe my doctor’s won’t order the test that I ask for.

    • I’ve not been diagnosed yet but my wife has been diagnosed with mycobacterium avium-intracellulare complex,moraxella catarrhalis (heavy growth),Candida dubliniensis (light growth), Rare Candida albicans , (2) species of penicillium and nocardia . I’m not sure what this means and how it all got in my wife’s system ( and problem mine to ). But we are in the process of trying to figure it out.

    • I’ve not been diagnosed yet but my wife has been diagnosed with mycobacterium avium-intracellulare complex,moraxella catarrhalis (heavy growth),Candida dubliniensis (light growth), Rare Candida albicans , (2) species of penicillium and nocardia . I’m not sure what this means and how it all got in my wife’s system ( and problem mine to ). But we are in the process of trying to figure it out.

  26. I live in Brisbane Australia & I cannot think of one GP that would even think of this or be willing to investigate. I am positive I have this. Finally everything is adding up. I wear shirts & singlets/shirts in my line of work & with the relatively sudden onset of wrinkles, it is not pretty to say the least. 👯

  27. hi hip
    Last couple of days I chew slowly couple of cloves a day. I feel like it help me for brain fog. do you have any experience of using cloves..?

    • Hi Hidir

      I have tried clove essential oil, a few drops mixed in some cooking oil and taken internally. But I did not notice much from it. I will try some actual cloves instead, to see if it helps my brain fog.

  28. Hi Hip

    I wondered if you think I have this virus.

    March 2015 I had glandular fever. April 2015 I had shingles. July 2015 I suddenly felt extremely tired on the Friday then the Sunday night I went to bed and my whole body started having pins and needles and I felt pain in my glands in my neck and collar bone and I felt like I’d been drugged. From then onwards I remained in an extremely anxious and that anxious state has not really left this entire time but I’m not actually anxious about anything. I lost my appetite initially and had severe insomnia. I had severe brain fog on and off (where it was difficult to even read a sentence) for the entire period although it has gone since January 2017. And my throats has been swollen since March 2016.

    Doctors diagnosed CFS and chronic sphenoid sinusitis .
    Now I have anxiety / muscle twitches/ sore throat/ sinusitis and lymph node swelling constantly . My anxiety makes it hard for me to sleep. I just found the virus has taken away who I really am , I used to be able to sleep amazingly, motivated, positive and now I’m none of those things and at 21 it feels my life has fallen apart.

    Would the supplements help my anxiety? Is it ok to take flaxseed capsules and not the oil? And is tumeric capsules ok too? Struggling to buy the NAG so going to order online.

    Many thanks,

    Someone in need of a miracle.

    I had no mental health problems prior to July 2015 and it’s so frustrating that now I suffer from anxiety

    • Also I had depersonalisation / derealisation with the brain fog but that’s gone now thankfully

    • Hi Anon

      The anti-anxiety supplements are one of the few things that I found worked for treating my viral symptoms. Most of the other mental symptoms the virus caused I found much harder to treat, and are still present to a degree, although they are not as bad as they used to be.

      So hopefully those anti-anxiety supplements will at least fix your anxiety. Turmeric capsules are fine, provided you take a dose of 1000 mg. If you want to use flaxseed powder instead of flaxseed oil, you need around 30 grams of powder daily (30 grams of flaxseed powder is equivalent to for 13 grams of flaxseed oil). Flaxseed oil capsules are not economical, as you would need 13 capsules daily, assuming each capsules contains 1000 mg of flaxseed oil.

      Inflammation from your sphenoid sinusitis may be affecting the brain, and might be driving some of your mental symptoms such as anxiety, loss of motivation. If you can reduce the sphenoid sinus inflammation, you may start to feel a bit better. Nasal irrigation with warm slightly salty solution may help reduce the sinusitis. Look up “nasal irrigation” or “jala neti” or YouTube to see the irrigation technique.

      I also found that the supplements listed in this post help reduce my chronic sinusitis.

  29. Hello all, I was told by a nurse friend that I could have this disorder. Has anyone experienced a sensitive tongue and gums as in brushing my teeth they are soar and bleed, along with my tongue?

  30. Also, was wondering if anyone knew of doctor in the Kansas area that could help with this virus? Thank you very much!

    • This disease is not a viral nature, but a parasitic disease, caused by unicellular parasites of the genus Trichomonas

  31. Thank you very much Mirulen! This all started 8 months ago with chronic sore throat and 2 months ago nasal drip, now this with the gums and tongue. It just seems my local Dr. and the nose, ears, and throat dr. wants to dismiss any of the evidence on this website. Thanks again! …… Will investigate more info.

    • You should understand that this is still not studied and that no one knows how or what to treat, do not use tablets against them, everything will come back
      It is necessary to work with non-traditional medicine
      Gum will help the gums to dissolve the pomegranate skin and keep the vortex and swallow it will work and in the stomach

  32. Hi, been searching the net trying to self diagnose myself and stumbled across this site. For me this all started about 8 or 9 minths ago. I must say a lot of the things people have experienced have happened to me minus the sore throat bit. It started with me stuggling to pass urine, everytime i would lay down it felt as though i need to go to the toilet however when I got up and went nothing would come out. I also had the growling stomache from time to time and my bowell movements changed and i still have an itchy anus from time to time. I was also very dizzy in the early stages and my eyes were quite blood shot. All these symtoms have since calmed down the only thing that i have recently noticed is dry crepey skin which is all over my body and can get a little itchy from time to time. Not sure what to do? Been to the doctors numerous times and was given cipro as they thought i had prostititus. Not sure if this just down to stress or if i actually have somthing going on?

    • I forgot to mention that i have quite a few floaters in my vision. I’ve always had them but now I have noticed that they increased by quite a bit.

  33. Hi Ed.
    I have a sore throat now for two months. It started suddenly with the symptoms of viral infection. The soreness is not going away no matter what I try, and I am stil feeling sick. My throat and soft palate look similarly to your picture. Can you clarify for me your sore throat symptom at first? How much pain or discomfort it have caused you ? My was and is guite painful and uncomfortable with some burning sensation. Thank you for your answer.

  34. Hi All, I found this website about a year ago and I was so happy to find a group that knew what I was going through. The hardest part of this disease is that it can’t be diagnosed. When I was on the website I learned of Dr. Richard Ellis from England. I started Dr. Ellis’ remedies on Feb 20, 2017. I have about 2 weeks left of the remedies. I am doing well. I believe that I have had this disease for decades. Dr. Ellis’ remedies do work and I am so happy and grateful. I am able to do things that I haven’t been able to do for years. I am bike riding and walking and hope to start running again when my stamina is built up. My sore throat was always 10 out of 10 painful. My brain fog is gone and I am actually getting things done again. :-)

  35. Have you looked into eosinophilia? Eosinophils release tons of inflammatory cytokines, and they are implicated in upper respiratory allergic problems. Additionally, they release elastase, which might be related to the skin problems accompanying the virus discussed here. When I saw that connection I immediately remembered this site.

    Tinosphora cordifolia has shown some effectiveness against eosinophilia and is an immune modulator that may have other antiviral benefits.

  36. Hey hip, something that concerns me is that I know many people who have caught this including myself, some less intensive than others. I even had a conversation with someone who lives near me that went through the same things I did, and as we all have with our doctors not knowing what’s going on. Even though some people feel less effects than others I still hear them complain about strange symptoms they have never gave before. Wheather it be upset stomach, acid reflex, sore throat, or any of the other varying side effects which leads me to be very baffled. Doctors must be noticing something is going on. Do you think they don’t notice, don’t give a crap, notice but don’t know what to do? I’d like to know your thoughts on that.

    • I think there will be many common viral, bacterial, fungal and protozoal infections of all sorts that may lead to mysterious symptoms and chronic illness, not just the virus described on this website. So then it becomes difficult to know what infection might be causing what symptoms. It’s further complicated by the fact that the same infectious pathogen will often produce very different symptoms or diseases in different people.

      You might find this article of interest:

      So I don’t think it is that easy for a primary care doctor to keep track of all this. However, if you go to an internationally renowned ME/CFS specialist (assuming the virus you have triggers ME/CFS), then they will be far more knowledgeable about the effects of pathogens in the context of ME/CFS, and these specialists are accustomed to testing you for the relevant infections, and treating you with antivirals or immunomodulators in some cases.

  37. Hi Hip,
    It’s good to know this website. I don’t know if it can help to me overcome the illnes, but somehow it makes me have idea about what kind of virus I may got.
    My Symptom almost the same as what you mentioned in this website. But I didn’t have Receding gums. I still remember the day I got this unknow virus. I eaten a pice of bread in the morning, then when I arrived my office I start diarrhea, and in the night I had a high fever. I thought I just eaten something wrong in the begaining. However, the other symptoms came to after another. I sufferd for over 8 months pain. The main symptom is fatigue which almost last 8 months.
    I think you are right, it’s Enterovirus. Because my symptom start from intestines and stomach. I had stomach issue for about 1 month after diarrhea(including Belching,Gastrectasia). Also, I noticed that the people who live with me for a while will get Iaryngopharyngitis. It’s one of my early symptom as well. But seems the virus didn’t keep working to their bodies.
    In the first year, I thought it may HIV that make me fear. I did 6 times test in 1 year include 1 time Nucleic acid detection, all result negative. Now my body feel become normal, but I still worrying about if these symptoms will return again, or my immune system will be destroied by this unknow virus. May I know how many years have you been infected by this virus and does your body become better or worse in these years? Do you tink this virus will hurt people’s immune system ?
    Expecting to hear your feedback.


    • Thanks your feedback. CVB4 is possible. But as I know many patients CD4 become lower than normal people. That’s why I worrying about if it’s close to HIV virus. However, as I know Intestine is the biggest immune system in human body. So it’s a kind of reason why our CD4 lower than comom people. What do you think ?

  38. Yes. But the syptoms are the same as yours. And they also infected people who live with them. Maybe I misleaded you to a wrong way, most patinets their CD4 is lower than comom people, but they CD4/CD8 is normal. Have you tested the CD4 ?

    • No, there are some differences in symptoms, see this page, and search for “difference in symptoms”. My CD4 count was normal. My CD4/CD8 ratio was 1.54, which is higher than normal.

  39. I am confuse. I don’t know which virus I cought. I don’t have Chest pain,Muscular atrophy. But I have
    skin peeling symptoms (on palms of hands and soles of feet)and muscles constantly twitch, all my syptoms are temporary. In another hand, my syptoms happen schedule meet yours. Maybe I need to test my CD4. I suspect it may Leprosy bacillus. Because I have 2 piece of rash whcih without any sensation on my foot(can not feeling pain or temperature), this very like Leprosy.
    Thanks for your answer.

  40. Hip,
    Did you consider at any point during your infection that the infection could be bacterial?
    To be more precise, based on several case reports and reviews, bartonella was the root cause of similar syndromes.
    After checking among a long list of possible pathogens it seems that bartonella supp is among the few, to not say the only pathogen, that have been reported capable to cause every single symptoms.
    Also intrahumun transmission is suspected since there are several cases of unexplained family infections.
    Regarding transmission, and knowing your background, I would like to ask you your point of view regarding bartonella transmission through saliva and skin contact? I mean in every mammal bartonella is shedding in saliva and fur so why will it spare humans?

  41. I did consider Bartonella, but the Bartonella henselae incubation period is 1 to 2 weeks, whereas my pathogen has an incubation period if 12 hours (observed multiple times, when people caught my pathogen from me), so this does not match. Also, my virus spread readily to over 30 people I known by ordinary social contract, whereas Bartonella does not spread readily. And I had no improvements in symptoms even after a month of doxycycline.

    • I have bartonella species in my radar also. Capable of producing all of these symptoms certainly. They are up to 27 species found so far and more added each year and most are capable of infecting humans. They are typically slow growing compared to most so 12 hr incubation period would be uncharacteristic as you say. But who knows what the atypical species can do.
      In case it’s of use to others here. The best source I have found on bartonella is a vetenary doctor – who is one of the leading researchers in the field. Edward Breischwerdts DVM
      His company galaxy diagnostics does testing ( so potential conflict I know)
      The organisms predominately cause symptoms in all /any organ or body part through disrupting blood vessels at the micro and macro scale causing disruption of flow of oxygen an nutrients to the tissues, with insueing drop in function, immune issues, neurological issues etc etc.
      YouTube his presentation at Norvect here

  42. I am 62 years old and it is only about 10-15 days ago that I noticed the crepey wrinkles on my hand which to my observation had appeared overnight? I am now taking medications for my anxiety which was prescribed to me by a Psychiatrist mainly because about a few months ago, I was confined on the Cardiovascular Intensive Care Unit due to a palpitations which my Cardiologist cannot pinpoint where it was coming from or what is causing it. I had a long-term medication of Motillium and according to some research studies, Motillium causes Heart Attacks as side effects from taking them. I am confused about these claims. I wonder… how can I determine if I have contracted Chronic Sore Throat/Mood Virus?
    Kindly help me determine things about this disease. I am surely be obliged and it will be of great help for our family as well as other people preventing this illness to spread.
    Thank you and may God Bless us all!

  43. hmm. this is strange, about the Mycoplasma, because i ve had hda same symptoms in here, and i was tested positive for Mycoplasma Pneumoniae in a blood simple test

  44. Hi hip does the skin wrinkling ever get better? is there any treatment
    for it? also do you find people with this condition have tingling in their fingers mostly upon waking. Thanks for help

    • No, unfortunately it does not seem to get better. I don’t know any treatment. The tingling can be paraesthesias, which people with my virus do get, but usually body-wide.

  45. hi ,
    i dont know if this is the right placr to reach out to you, so excuse me if its not…
    actually i wanted to post in the “completely-eliminated-my-severe-anxiety-symptoms-with-three-supplements” -thread but they havent approved my post yet , probably because i dont have me or cfs and only wanted to comment about NAG…

    So this is what i wanted to write:
    ( I hope its not too long, but i really want to know about this and been learning about this whole anxiety topic for years! )

    Hi everyone ,

    i only created this account to comment on this thread .

    the short story is :
    i took one capsule of NAG , got strong diarrhea and want to know why.

    the long story is:
    i am 23 years old and have had anxiety ( i would say social anyiety and GAD and also some irrational phobias ) for the last 3-4 years. but
    if i think about it, it was there for a much longer time it just wasnt that bad.
    . i always thought my anxiety was kind of chemically /physically caused and not mental. so comparable to hip i tried a lot of supplemets (40-70) to figure out whats going on. long story short . I probably have pyroluria , or at least i feel much better on very high doeses of B6 and Zinc (i dont feel better on just high doses)
    so i was able to reduce my anxiety and especially improve my energy levels a lot .but still there is some anxiety ,especially physical anxiety if you know what i mean?
    in situations that i used to be afraid my body responds to this situation with extreme symptoms like sweating , strong heart beat for know reason… just panic
    and i mainly wanted to get rid of this . and the rest of my anxiety.
    so i ordered jarrows nag . i received it and took one capsule. one hour after that i got strong diarrhea.
    So for me this could mean two things :
    1. Its some kind of herxheimer reaction , that is cleaning out bad bacteria (dont even know if NAG does that ? )
    2. Its making some existing gut issue worse .
    There is already a thread called “NAG (N-acetylglucosamine) increases Candida virulence” and hip already commented that it might be true ,but also the opposite might be true ?!

    i also found this in an article:

    “Emerging data indicate that the ubiquitous sugar GlcNAc is sensed by a broad range of organisms as a way to detect growth of neighboring cells or pathogenic attack.
    The ability of fungal and bacterial pathogens to regulate virulence functions in response to GlcNAc suggests that parasites will too, a possibility supported by
    the important role for GlcNAc metabolism in Leishmania [34]. The widespread presence of GlcNAc also suggests that is well suited to mediate interspecies
    communication with the host or between microorganisms to promote either symbiotic relationships or pathogenic interactions. In this way, GlcNAc is similar
    to many different chemical messengers, including quorum sensing factors, that are also used to communicate both intra- and interspecies [35]. Thus, it will
    be important to define the roles for GlcNAc signaling in complex environments, such as the human gut or in polymicrobial infections that contain a diverse array
    of bacteria, fungi, and human cells [36].”

    So maybe i should add that i am almost 100 % sure that i do have some kind of gut issue.I long suspected to have Candida, SIBO or IBS ( always had a lot of bloating)
    in the end i am not sure what issue i do have , only that there is something wrong with my gut. i am also sure ,because of a lot of stuf i read,that inflammation is one of my ( if not THE) mainproblem(s) . so from what i have read on this thread this makes me like the perfect person to successfully try NAG…

    The morning after the first dose and i still felt calm as after the first hours…
    Today is the second day i took two divided doses of about 300 mg and 450 mg and i definetely felt the calming effect! i dont know why and if it was because
    of NAG but i did feel some agressions in the afternoon and was really sweating to some small things
    But i didnt get diarrhea anymore !
    Does this mean i am one of the “responders” to NAG?
    I want to stress that i am not pro or contra NAG ! I just want to know if it helps or damages me ^^ .
    I also dont have CFS or ME

  46. Hi Moritz

    One thing you can try is transdermal NAG: opening a capsule of NAG, and rubbing the powder onto a large area of your skin (eg, your thighs and legs), and then adding a few drops of water afterwards to wet the powder and allow it to absorb into the skin. That way you may bypass any gut problems that NAG might cause you. But if that does not work for your anxiety, you may want to go back to the oral dosing of NAG. It may be that (at least some of) the anti-anxiety effects of NAG arise from NAG’s effects in the gut, so if that’s the case, transdermal NAG may not be as effective as oral NAG. But it is something you can experiment with.

    Your anxiety symptoms of sweating and strong heart beat (the physical symptoms) indicate that you may have panic disorder (PD) rather than generalized anxiety disorder (GAD). The main differences are that in GAD, the anxiety is more or less continuous, and the anxiety is confined more to the brain/mind; whereas with PD, the anxiety is not present all the time, it only appears in short episodes called panic attacks, which typically last for 5 to 20 minutes, though sometimes they can last up to an hour. Panic attacks involve the release of adrenaline, which is why you get the sweating and raised heart rate.

    If your anxiety only appears in short episodes like this, then you probably have PD rather than GAD. But is your anxiety is present most of the time, then its GAD. As far as I know, NAG can work for GAD, but I am not sure if it helps PD.

  47. hey ,
    thanks for answering. did you read the full text? i also wrote that i didnt get diarrhea on the second day but i did get : some agressive behaviour, my throat feels so clear and empty breathing feels weird because there is less resistance but i didnt have a sore throat before!

    i think i do have pd. however NAG seems to help me i do feel its calming effect . does that mean i have brain inflammation?

    • Yes, I read your text, but in case you do get more bowel symptoms, transdermal may be useful. You’ll have to keep monitoring any adverse effects like aggression, and see if these are just transient, or whether they remain. NAG is good for the mucous membranes throughout the respiratory and gastrointestinal tract, so it will reduce any nasal and sinus congestion that you may have. And normally NAG is considered beneficial for the intestinal mucous membrane lining.

      Responding to NAG does not prove you have brain inflammation, but that’s a possibility, since several mental health conditions have been linked to neuroinflammation.

  48. okay thank you.
    did you ever hear of somone he gets agressive o NAG ? i also feel less able to calm down like wired but tired … I will observe that , but on the other hand i feel less anxious if that makes sense. it feels like i my adrenals are working a lot . i remember this feeling from my adrenal fatigue like time .
    i also read that nag is raising your heartbeat. whats with that ?
    i read from another person on your thread on phoenix rising who said it made him feel spacey ..
    i also rad that you shouldnt take nag when you have asthma . i had asthma when is was a kid. is that a contraindication?

    • I got increased depression when first taking NAG, but after a year that effect disappeared. Not heard of aggression, but supplements can create different side effects in different people. I don’t know about the asthma question. If you find any info, please post.

    • this is for the asthma :

      but couldit be that this is some kind of detox reaction, thats eventually gonna go away? because a few hours after taking nag i felt super nice and calm and slept really really fell , but beofre htat there was a lot of mucus coming up and agression … just sayin because i got that detox feeling once from a supplement and it went away after 2 weeks ..
      my body also feels like it needs a lot of rest , so ill go a little more slow on the dosage i guess …

    • Thanks, I’ve added a note in my original NAG thread that NAG may aggravate asthma. You might consider trying lower doses initially, eg, half a capsule, to give your body a chance to get used to NAG. There is a parallel NAG thread on another forum here by the way.

    • my body is overwhelmed , its seems like im getting the flue which is essentially herxheimer reaction . I’m already down to half a capsule per day, but still dont feel good. its strange that theres no evidence that this happened to anyone else…
      but i still think there might be some benefits for when all the herxing is finished :)
      thx i ll check that out

  49. Hi, I came across your blog on PR while researching possible persistent infection with CBV as a cause of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome like symptoms that occurred in my fiance and myself at the same time 2.5 years ago.
    Our initial symptoms were the typical viral onset pattern of a sore throat, fever, tiredness, headache, with overwhelming fatigue for 24hrs that never went away since.
    This was followed by extreme anxiety attacks for my fiance ( whereas I just don’t handle stress as well as I used to )
    We now have continual chronic fatigue with symptoms flares and delayed fatigue if we step outside a very restrictive controlled diet, lifestyle, sleep and stress managed routine.
    symptoms that as far as I am aware are not typical of chronic fatigue syndrome in general are:
    – thin papery, wrinkled – like that of a 65yr olds esp on legs and arms
    – new moles and other reddish / brownish discolourations esp torso
    – also patches of hypo-pigmentation ( unpigmented white spots ) on arms and legs
    painful – but also swollen joints
    – knees being the most obvious / visible – swollen all around – up to 1.5x normal size puffy, reddened
    – was at its worst for first 6-12 months – now somewhat reduced
    – random pain with or without swelling in any other joints – eg swollen painful finger for 1 day
    blood circulation
    – obvious reddening of lower extremities when standing – often with livido pattern
    – poor capillary refill on legs and feet in particular — eg 5 seconds or more but suspect this is systemic
    – extremely painful red deep blood blisters appearing on toes of one foot – then a year later on the other foot

    as per usual, we have seen numerous NHS and private doctors, pointing out the unusual nature of symptoms and the fact that we both became ill at the same time and have had only the usual diagnosis of CFS, Fibromyalgia, post viral fatigue depending on which we talk to.
    NHS test have shown nothing much out of place
    occasionally mildly elevated liver enzymes
    occasional plasma viscosity on the high side
    Private tests have shown disturbances in neurotransmitters in Tryptophan metabolism – eg Quinolinic acid extremely high ( around 10-12 standard deviations away from normal range )
    also, stool testing has shown imbalanced intestinal flora/dysbiosis – which was treated and returned to normal – but symptoms were not relieved suggesting a deeper cause.

    The following herbs and supplements help to some degree – mainly
    Japanese knotweed for CNS inflammation and overall symptoms – around 10g a day
    Andrographis paniculate for CNS inflammation 400mg 3x day
    D-Ribose seems to help for energy – as do some Chinese herbs like – Eleuthero, Rhodiola
    Niacinamide helps for anxiety – 500mg daily
    5-Htp helps for anxiety – 100mg daily

    The reason for commenting here is that I am particularly keen to understand if the above symptoms are consistent with your experiences in yourself and the others you know of with this virus / potential illness. especially the swollen knees and circulation issues as these seem unusual.

    thank you for taking the time to share your experiences.

    • Hi Garz, pain in the joints, especially pain that comes and goes and migrates to other joints, can be part of the ME/CFS picture, although I don’t have this symptom myself. However, painful and swollen joints is not normally found in ME/CFS; but painful swollen joints can be a sign of Lyme disease, especially when it is in the knees and other large joints.

      Though Lyme disease is not usually considered contagious, so the fact that you and your fiancé got the same illness at the same time suggests it may not be Lyme (although recently there has been some research indicating that Borrelia can be transmitted during unprotected sex, so possibly it could have been transmitted this way). Elevated liver enzymes is fairly common in Lyme

      High quinolinic acid can also be part of the Lyme disease picture. Quinolinic acid may also be responsible for anxiety, as this neurotoxin potently activates the NMDA receptors in the brain. Do you live in a Lyme risk area in the UK, or do you visit such areas? There is a UK Lyme disease risk map here (though it is not very clear), and a Scottish map here.

      The reddening of lower extremities when standing may be a sign of postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), a condition that often comes with ME/CFS as well as Lyme. POTS involves blood pooling in the lower extremities on standing, due a dysfunction in the autonomic nervous system which would act to counter the increased blood pressure created by standing. POTS can cause fatigue and anxiety symptoms just one its own, but can be treated to an extent with medications.

      You may find this roadmap of ME/CFS testing and treatment of use.

      If you are still suffering from anxiety, some of the treatments listed on my thread here may help (although you may want to avoid NAG, as this may not be good in Lyme disease). Possibly ome of the quinolinic acid inhibitors listed in this post may also help reduce anxiety.

  50. you seem like a knowledgeable source ,so do you have suggestion for a supplement that supports nerves ( other than b vitamins)?

  51. Thanks for the rapid response Hip,
    appreciate the input.
    Yes, Lyme is on our differential diagnosis list for all the reasons you mention – but we have both been tested by the NHS and found negative so we had pushed that back down the list of possibilities to some extent. Although there is so much controversy about the UK NHS tests that we will now likely have a private test done also for peace of mind – either through Armin Labs, Germany or Igenex in the USA.
    We live in the Cotswolds – not a notified high risk area for lyme – but I have since found that Leeds or Manchester University is doing a tick study in our area and so far published data that shows the Lyme spirochete in 9% of ticks they gathered – so not out of the question.
    My fiance has the most pronounced reddening of the legs and had a tilt table test and 48hr monitor fitted but apparently, they found nothing significant in the results.
    thanks for the CFS diagnosis/treatment link – will read that
    thanks also for the quinolinic acid inhibitors – we are trying to stay as natural as possible with the treatments/supplements as we are taking them long term. we currently take turmeric, low dose copper with zinc, DHEA I think Knotweed does that also – and we find L-theanine quite effective at reducing anxiety if taken 2x daily – and pasque flower tincture in reserve if it really spikes.

    interesting that your situation does not reflect the joint swelling – despite the many similarities, but of course there are so many potential pathogens – and many of them present differently from person to person – so that makes it a bit of a needle in a haystack.

    I think our next step will be to do as many private tests as we can afford for the most likely candidates. as without having at least a broad idea of what causative agent we are dealing with treatment is very difficult indeed and usually reduced to symptom management rather than a permanent solution.

    good luck with your journey and thank you for your input.

    • One final point.
      I can recommend the work of Stephen Buhner if you haven’t come across it already. He is a very interesting individual and renowned herbalist with a special interest in chronic conditions.
      He has written a book called herbal antivirals that I think may be useful to you. It’s a guide to treating a range of emerging virus diseases naturally with a focus on 7 main antiviral plants, immune modulating herbs and other supportive therapies.
      There are also small specific sections on enterovirus, rota virus etc.
      The guys approach is to combine the the best of modern scientific research with the experience of traditional medicine approaches from around the world, and western botanical practice to form what is a more rounded and effective approach.

      Thanks again

  52. Garz, if you want to test for coxsackievirus B and echovirus, you’ll need to send blood samples to ARUP Lab in the US, as this is the only commercial lab I am aware of in the world that offers a neutralization-type test sensitive enough to detect the individual serotypes of coxsackievirus B and echovirus. Unfortunately is pretty expensive, $440. See the FAQ page for more info.

    But as you are no doubt aware, it can be a needle in a haystack situation when trying to pin down the pathogen responsible for your symptoms.

    Thanks for the book recommendation. Regarding antiviral herbs: what you have to watch out for it the difference between in vitro studies (conducted in a cell line in a dish), and in vivo studies (conducted in the human body or in animals). Lots of compounds from herbs can have potent antiviral effects in vitro, when used at a certain concentration in the cell line; but this does not necessarily pan out when you take the herb or compound orally, as toxicity or overdose issues of the herbal compound prevent you from taking an oral dose high enough to get the same concentration in your blood and tissues as was used in the cell line in the in vitro study.

    This applies to drugs too: there are many drugs that have off label potent antiviral effects in vitro. But when you calculate the oral dose of the drug needed to get the same concentration in the body tissues and bloodstream as was used in the in vitro study, you often find that the oral dose is way too high (much higher than the maximum safe dose) to be of practical use. In these circumstances, the in vitro antiviral effects of herbs, supplement or drugs become in practice useless.

    So in vitro antiviral studies do not necessarily mean the antiviral compound will have a useful antiviral effect in vivo.

    • Hi Hip,
      Buhner s work is mainly based on the work in humans.
      Typically a multi-pronged approach.
      Interrupting the cytokine cascade the particular pathogen initiates
      Enhancing the immune system so the body can fight the infection
      Protecting the organ systems involved.
      Alleviating symptoms to improve overall well being.
      Finally anti-microbial herbs can be used to reduce pathogen load

      The overall approach is multipronged and highly holistic as with chronic conditions where the whole organism is effected, antimicrobials alone are not enough to resolve the condition.
      Certainly worth a read.
      Has helped us quite a bit.

  53. hi !
    i have a question concerning NAG. could it accelerate or enhance inflammatiion (at first) ?
    Because i got bursitis under my left illipsoas and i never had this before! could it have been there all the time ? and what do i do doncerning the dosage
    thanks ;)

    • I don’t know the answer to your question, but NAG reduces the Th17 immune response, which is important in Staphylococcus and Candida infection, so conceivably NAG might allow a flare up of such infections, causing inflammation.

    • so you say it induces inflammation when i actually take it to lower inflammation… i dont see the logic in that . or do you think this is only temporary?

  54. hi !
    i think i didnt tolerate nag because i suspect a shellfish allergy. do you knoe if there is an alternative nag thats not from shellfish ?
    thank you :)

    • oh yes , i ve seen it! i already ordered swansons NAG and will give it shot. btw they have an offer for nag buy one get two: so you get 2 bottles for 15 $ !!

      Also there is a study that i wanted to show you . its about rutin and neuroinflammation. dont know if you have considered taking that. i take it. and there is a gentleman in your thread that says it has eased his anxiety (along with other anti inflammatories )

  55. Hi I thought I would follow up with this board… I have posted before about certain chronic symptoms that I have had similar to the ones described on this site- affecting throat, sleep, energy, skin, dehydration, joint inflammation… I can personally report improvements in all after taking Oxymatrine. I’m taking 2-3 200mg pills it’s the White Tiger brand- I get it here– I think it’s import to let it build in your system for a few weeks to judge the effect- it doesn’t happen overnight. I’d say two weeks in I noticed improvements– esp in sleep and dealing with phlegm. In regard to my throat, which hadn’t felt “normal” in over 5 years, I now go for days without noticing discomfort- it’s much better. I’m hoping that the effect will eventually be permanent but for now if I miss a day I will notice it (feels like underlying condition is still there) I’m also still supplementing with selenium 400mcg (micrograms). I’m also taking Schizandra berry 2x200mg… not sure whether this or the oxymatrine but I do notice improvement to the skin– not as much of the fine crepe paper wrinkling– still some, but not as pronounced. I still notice strange itching though- in ears(!) temples etc. maybe a bit less. Memory and mental symptoms are a little better- no miracle- but sleep quality is much improved… which is good because I was often lying awake half the night. Haven’t noticed many side effects–very occasional indigestion. That’s it for now, special thanks to Hip for this site. P

    • Thanks for your post PJ.

      As it happens, I am currently trying oxymatrine again, but this time using a few tricks that I hope will make it work better (previously I have tried oxymatrine several times, but without noticing much benefits; so I am hoping that these tricks will make a difference).

      The tricks I am using to try to get a better response from oxymatrine are:

      (1) Taking oxymatrine once every 2 hours (I am currently taking 150 mg of oxymatrine — half of a 300 mg Alternative Medicine Solutions capsule — every two hours). The half-life of oxymatrine in the blood is only 2 hours (meaning that after two hours, half of the oxymatrine will have already left your body), so in order to keep blood levels of oxymatrine up, you can take 150 mg of oxymatrine every two hours.

      (2) Drinking grapefruit juice with the oxymatrine. In the body, oxymatrine is converted to matrine by the liver enzyme CYP3A4. But grapefruit juice is a potent CYP3A4 inhibitor, so this allows oxymatrine to stay around in the body for longer before it is metabolized to matrine. You can instead take grapefruit seed extract tablets instead of grapefruit juice, as grapefruit seed extract is also a good CYP3A4 inhibitor.

      (3) I am taking the antiviral Epivir (lamivudine) 200 mg once daily before bed along with the oxymatrine. Dr John Chia often uses Epivir for ME/CFS patients with enterovirus infections, and he says it has some anti-enterovirus effects.

      (4) I am experimentally taking 100 mg once daily of the Russian drug Arbidol (umifenovir) along with oxymatrine. Arbidol has been shown to inhibit the cytokine IL-10, and IL-10 is used by a number of viruses including coxsackievirus B4 to thwart the immune system from clearing the virus from the body. Thus if you can inhibit IL-10, this allows the immune system to better fight and clear coxsackievirus B infections. The Chinese herbal formula minor Bupleurum (Xiao Chai Hu Tang) has also been shown to inhibit IL-10, so I am taking this as well. More info on IL-10 and coxsackievirus B infections in this post.

      (5) After around 4 weeks of taking oxymatrine daily, I will add the antibiotic rifampin 300mg twice daily for 7 days. Dr Chia has found that a short one week course of rifampin can boost the effects of oxymatrine, as rifampin has immunomodulatory effects.

      Some Sources for Oxymatrine

      Equilibrant (Dr Chia’s brand) oxymatrine tablets are available here.

      Alternative Medicine Solutions oxymatrine capsules containing 300 mg of oxymatrine powder per capsule are available here: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.  

      White Tiger brand oxymatrine tablets, containing 200 mg oxymatrine per tablet, can be found here: 1, 2, 3, 4 and a European source: 5.

      Note that Dr Chia says oxymatrine is not recommended for people with autoimmune tendencies or seizure disorders.

      Important info to read before starting the oxymatrine protocol: Dr Chia: Oxymatrine, Oxymatrine, Autoimmunity, ME/CFS and FM, Quixotic: Equilibrant, Invest in ME 2010 conference transcript, oxymatrine effects, immunomodulators info.

  56. Hi.
    I kissed a person and my face started to burn.
    Prickle. Then I got a cold sore for a week. Kissed him a few more times and the sore throat started. I have prickle burning sensation in my face when I feel tired or stressed. I think herpes virus in face and throat?
    I have itchy feeling on body occasionally.
    I feel exhausted.
    What do you think it is? Could it be your virus?

  57. Hip, if you could go – or recommend – anywhere in the world to have any / every (even investigative) test possible, where would you choose (to find out *exactly* what this illness is) and why?

    • Hip
      Following on from “Desperates” question,
      I was wanting to ask you to forgive my ignorance in advance, but seeing as there is great difficulty in getting the right blood tests done to identify the possibility of this illness, Would it be so costly to set up a small lab for this? i.e. purchase the machinery and hire a lab technician on a per test basis?
      The reason I ask this is having attended so many auctions over the last few years , i have seen bundles and bundles of medical machinery pass through on lots gaining little bidding interest from the attendees and selling fairly cheaply.
      Now i know this would be a huge ask, but i am sure given the fact that thousands of people have this illness with very little being done to assist others in being diagnosed, that if this was not a huge start up cost , then it is something i would possibly consider doing (along with others).
      The other option would be to try to come to an agreement with a local lab who would agree to perform these tests and then let everyone know.
      Obviously it would be with NO intention to charge people other than the absolute minimum.

      Maybe there are some lab technicians / analysts who post on your blog who could help advise??? If so please do message also.

      Again i ask that you forgive my ignorance on the matter.

  58. It is quite likely that the virus I caught is coxsackievirus B4, as my lab tests showed CVB4 was an active infection.

    You can be tested for chronic coxsackievirus B at ARUP Lab (see the FAQ page for info). This is the only lab I know that offers an antibody neutralization test, which is the only type of blood test sensitive enough to reliably detect chronic CVB infections.

    There is a huge shortage of labs offering antibody neutralization tests, but I doubt if it would be feasible to set up your own home lab without having the required expertise in calibrating and using the equipment.

    There is a new drug in the research pipeline (that I hope will be available within 5 years or so) which has potent anti-CVB4 effects, and so should be able to treat all the symptoms produced by my virus.

    This anti-CVB4 is called Rega Compound A

    In the mean time, it is worth trying the immunomodulator oxymatrine to combat this infection. See the Treatments Page for more info.

    • Hip, thank you so much for your response. (I also read a lot of your posts on P.R. and am very grateful for those as well as your advice on this website, too.)

      I’m in the UK but I’ll look into those ARUP tests ASAP. In the meantime – hypothetically – if this wasn’t coxsackie for whatever reason, do you know of any labs that can be used to attempt to isolate any / every possible virus from a sample? Something like VirScan for example. (Or is technology not quite there yet?) Money isn’t an issue. TIA!

    • There is which uses high throughput screening to test for all pathogens in one go. Cost is $500 to $1000. However, if you look at this thread of an ME/CFS patient who tried Aperiomics, you see that they found almost no viruses (and yet most people have dozens of viruses in their body).

      This I think is because chronic viral infections tend to localize in specific tissues and cells (eg, enterovirus like to infect gut tissues; EBV likes to infect B-cells), so unless you get a tissue sample of the infected organ or cells, the Aperiomics is likely not going to help.

      I don’t think there is any shortcut to getting individual tests of all the pathogens that are associated with the symptoms you have. If you have ME/CFS symptoms, then the pathogen tests you’d want to get are detailed in this document:

      I was told recently that the ARUP are no longer accepting samples from abroad (but I have not verified this). If true, that means that it becomes very difficult to test for chronic enterovirus infections, as I am not aware of any other Lab providing neutralization test for coxsackievirus B.

  59. if you read the news ..” in 5 years or so, we ll have a new drug for cancer”…

    what a big joke!!!

    Hip, if you think that coxsackievirus is the main issue , you have another problem. most of babies in the world get in contact with coxsackievirus and their immune sistem get it out.

    i think the main problem here is in the colon and intestins. there is your immune sounds to me as inflammatory disease ( chron s disease, colon cancer, fungus)

    go get a colonscopy! endoscopy and CT. go see a doctor! if you re not happy, see another 50 doctors!

    make all tests possible!

    i went in Lyme forum, there was a person for 12 years fighting LYME! and he had colon cancer! and he could treat it if he knew about. but it was too late! and he passed away 2 months ago!.

    and don t take drugs without any professional advice!…

  60. Quoting lepetit: “Hip, if you think that coxsackievirus is the main issue , you have another problem. most of babies in the world get in contact with coxsackievirus and their immune sistem get it out.”

    Coxsackie A viruses are more cleared by the immune system, but Coxsackie B viruses can persist as chronic intracellular infections. Some researchers think chronic coxsackievirus B infection of the pancreas is the cause of type 1 diabetes. Chronic coxsackievirus B infection of the heart muscle is linked to heart diseases such as dilated cardiomyopathy. And chronic coxsackievirus B infections are observed in myalgic encephalomyelitis.

    • and some reaserches think is because Toxic Mold, Lyme, Chlamydia, you name it…
      – do you have diabetes1? and Myalgic encephal?

      before pointing on Coxsackievirus make usual tests as colonscopy, endoscopy, CT, MRI. This is how medicine works! and not with ” some doctors THINK!! ”
      go step by step and eliminate as much as you can..

      hm.. i have diabetes 1 and some heart problems..maybe a should check with this coxsackie B!…

  61. Hip, you take Oxymatrine every 2 hours?? Jesus. Overdose!!

    and Epivir use people having HIV! …low immune system this is why i recommend you making a colonscopy, to rule out colon cancer.

    you should not prescribe drugs, some people could be alergic and die.

    are you a doctor?

    • Dr John Chia, the myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME) and enterovirus expert who pioneered the oxymatrine treatment for ME, sometimes uses up to 9 capsules a day (though you have to start slowly at 1 capsule a day). More commonly he uses 6 capsules a day. Capsules are 200 to 300 mg each.

      Dr Chia also find Epivir has antiviral effects against chronic enteroviruses, and is effective for 33% of ME patients.

      I do not prescribe drugs; people need to get drugs through their own doctor.

    • I tried oxymatrine several times before, but it did not help much. But this time I am combining oxymatrine with high dose vitamin D3 (10,000 IU daily), Epivir 200 mg daily and Arbidol 100 mg daily. One patient with ME found that oxymatrine did not work for him the first time, but when he tried oxymatrine again with high dose vitamin D3, he got good results. So that is why I have added vitamin D3 to my protocol.

      If you take the low-dose naltrexone (LDN) immunomodulator protocol, this works much better with vitamin D3. Since oxymatrine is also an immunomodulator, perhaps vitamin D3 will also help oxymatrine to work better.

      I have been on this oxymatrine protocol for 1 month now. Interestingly enough, I have more fatigue and brain fog (worsened ME symptoms). But this is a good sign, because when oxymatrine works, you often feel worse for one or two months before you get better.

  62. I am a Chinese, this disease appeared early in Chinese for 04 years, I have come from my latest blog data, there are 59 people in the study of collective China report and dialogue two doctor, now is not what good way to ease, only the people of the world unite let the world, study the disease, I think we need to set up a disease, that really scared, if you want to contact me, my Facebook is li.ting.50309

  63. Hi Hip,

    How are you? It has been years since I posted something here. Just a quick update of my health condition. Everything goes much better compared to 2010 and I may attribute these changes to the change of my life style. I quit all unhealthy food and do regular exercise (5 days a week). Last month I did some medical check and everything is normal (blood test, blood pressure, kidney, liver, heart and everything). I have to say this virus is no more my big concern and most things come back on track. There are still some symptoms like joints cracking and some acne at times. But nothing goes any worse compared to 2010.
    I would like to thank you for everything you did for us and it is really of great help and inspirational.


  64. Hip,
    I have a question for you.
    In many occasions, you said that this virus, or whatever it is, is difficult to test because it’s probably hidden in tissues and not in the blood stream.
    My question is if this the case how it can be transmitted through body fluids? Does that not mean that the virus is in the body fluids and in the salivary glands and thus should be easy to find/isolate?

    • Yes, that is correct: enteroviruses tend to infect the mucous membranes of the entire respiratory tract and the gastrointestinal tract. Dr Chia uses tissue samples of the stomach mucous membranes, and he tests those tissues for enteroviruses. In ME/CFS patients, he usually finds these stomach tissues are infected. His test is not that expensive ($250), but you need to find a gastroenterologist who will take a tissue sample by endoscope. Alternatively, the ARUP Lab blood tests I mentioned in the FAQ page can also easily detect enteroviruses.

  65. and what if enteroviruses are everywhere ? what if there is another underllying cause?

    like candida and helycobacter pil. we all have this, but when our immune system is down , they profilerate and take over your body.

    i still think there is another hidden stuff here…this is why we should d o as many test as possible,

  66. I think I’ve posted this question to the group before but cant remember I got any responses so I will post it again. Has anyone else had positive effects from the treatment from a borna virus?

    • Amantadine improves my mood, but that’s likely because it has an antidepressant effect, due to it increasing dopamine receptor populations, inhibiting MAO-A, increasing serotonin and increasing beta endorphin.

  67. Dear Hip, I’m currently looking into the hypothesis that Staphylococcus or Step in the gut are the root cause of my CFS / M.E./ “undiagnosable illness”.

    I recently saw that you once found Staphylococcus aureus and Proteus Mirabilis in your gut. Is there a reason why you believe Coxsackie to be your main issue (and not the two above)? TIA!

  68. has any one had any relief from this? The doctors think it’s all in my head. Please help I can beairly get out of bed everyday. And my mom thinks I’m crazy.

  69. There is a host of interesting data out there on gut dysbiosis. It is probably very poorly understood at the moment as we are only just developing the tools to understand it.
    The reasons for this lack of understanding however are not only the lack of tools.
    There is also considerable complexity in the model we need to use understand these complex interacting communities of bacteria, archaea, fungi, viruses, and parasites that live in the gut and contribute to our health status. We simply have not evolved these models yet. Then to go understand how changes in the prevalence of certain species effect human health is another step of complexity again.
    If we look at the tools first. Tools are available now to look at the gut microbiome at the taxa level above species level – but not yet reliably at species level. This is important because we wish to know which species are present to understand better if they are going to positively or negatively impact our health. But a pathogenic E.Coli is 99.9% the same in DNA as a pathogenic strain or a Shigella and the techniques so far cannot reliably tell them apart.
    However even species level is not enough, unlike us, bacteria’s DNA is not fixed at birth. They can exchange DNA with neighbouring species in little packets called plasmids, which they can then zip into their own bodies and begin to do new things, eg become more virulent, digest different foods etc etc, so even knowing what species you have is not the full story in terms of its impact on your health.
    Then there are all of the viruses, phages (viruses that specialise in infecting bacteria), fungi and other microorganisms that cohabit in the human gut in possibly even higher numbers than the bacteria, forming an inherent part of the microbiome, shaping it and contributing to its interactions with the host.
    In addition, the gut community is not a homogeneous blend of food and microorganisms evenly spread through the digestive tract gently releasing their by-products into the mix and these compounds becoming gradually absorbed. No. in fact most of the key non-transient species of bacteria in the gut colonise the gut lining and compete for space there with other species. The gut lining secretes mucous at a given rate to protect its cells and the bacteria grow into the mucous at a given rate and the body works to maintain this balance. It is this balance that keeps the bacteria from invading our tissues and the populations in the gut relatively stable.
    As you can see it’s a robust system able to resist permanent significant shifts due to its embedded and protected nature.
    In the context of mysterious undiagnosed illness there seems to be significant scope for a role for the gut microbiome or an imbalance thereof.
    What we do know:
    Around 70% of the human immune system resides in the tissues lining the gut.
    More and more evidence is building that the gut organisms are responsible for tuning the immune system to adapt to its environment correctly and that imbalances contribute to many chronic conditions from asthma, to eczema, to epilepsy and Alzheimer’s.
    Immune dysregulation is a known part of many chronic conditions – all auto-immune conditions and for instance the syndrome known as CFS or ME.
    By the way – all of these conditions are on the increase in western society.
    Consider also that there are about as many neurons in the gut lining as there are in a cat’s brain – and this “2nd brain” is in constant communication with the human brain. Certainly, there is some scope for systemic symptoms to be driven via that route, if the gut system is disrupted.
    “This is all very well…” I hear you say …”but how would can the gut be the root cause of an illness that comes on suddenly or spreads from person to person”
    Here, and I think it’s becoming increasingly clear for many chronic illnesses, we have to consider that the model of one disease, with one set of symptoms, caused by one pathogen, as proposed by Pasteur all that time ago, however attractive that is, may not be the best model to look at chronic disease today with.
    For instance, what if the thing causing the illness to persist is different to the thing that originally triggered it. That triggering thing may be gone or at least under control by the immune system, but the illness is caused to persist by a second condition. That could be one caused by the first but has become stuck.
    For a slightly more specific example. Prolonged illness, often with fatigue and other lingering symptoms, after various viral infections are well noted in the literature. And yet they are poorly understood. Eg after EBV infection
    It would be quite plausible that a viral infection could cause the human body to lose control of the balance detailed in the above paragraphs and that once knocked severely out of balance this condition alone could cause their illness to persist and even develop further, due to lack of proper nutrient absorption, activation and dysregulation of the immune system, endocrine disruption from the microbial by-products etc etc. yet blood tests for pathogens would keep coming back negative
    In summary a single pathogen model, especially in chronic illness, may lead to inappropriate interventions and a poor outcome. The world just isn’t often that simple.
    Food for thought?

  70. Research into the microbiome is a fashionable subject at the moment, but it remains to be seen whether any solid cause and effect links to disease will be found. However, the link between various viral and bacterial infections in the body tissues (as opposed to the gut) is much stronger (some info here), and I am inclined to think that the latter are the main causes of pathogen-induced diseases.

    In the case of ME/CFS, patients have been put into complete remission for over a year using interferon, which fights enterovirus infections. That to me is strong evidence that a single viral infection can cause ME/CFS. Unfortunately, there are reasons why you cannot use interferon indefinitely.

  71. I understand your position, and you may very well be right. Certainly, neither one of us will prove the other wrong or right at this stage, as there is simply not enough is known. That is in any case not my objective,
    However, I do encourage you to consider other possible mechanisms for your illness, to have the best possible chance to find treatment approaches that help.

    On CFS – it may be worth noting that remission has also been achieved in many cases by fecal transplant pointing to the gut microbiota having a causal (or at least perpetuating role) in that illness.

    example study below ( there are quite a few others).
    This is an Australian Fecal Transplant study that had a 58-70% response rate for ME/CFS!!!
    (published oct 2012)

    Bacteriotherapy in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS): A Retrospective Review

    Conclusion: Bacteriotherapy achieves initial success rate of 70% in CFS and 58% sustained response. This result is favourable when compared with current therapies where fewer than 10% recover fully and a further 10%-20% worsen during follow-up1. Given that manipulation of the colonic microbiota improved CFS symptoms, bacteriotherapy for CFS warrants further investigation. Furthermore, the pathophysiology of CFS could be in part explained by enteric derived toxin-releasing bacteria capable of producing systemic effects.

    • I do agree Garz that we need to consider and explore as many angles as possible, and I have certainly tried lots of gut-targeted treatments (probiotics, prebiotics, antibiotics, leaky gut protocols, etc). In particular, prebiotics such as inulin helped reduce my anxiety symptoms quite a bit, indicating the link between the gut and the brain. The yeast probiotic Saccharomyces boulardii was also helpful for me: it increase secretory IgA in the intestines.

      I am familiar with that Australian fecal transplant study by Professor Borody, and would like to try a fecal transplant myself. However, I recently learnt that not all fecal transplant donors are equal: some people, called superdonors, possess a microbiome ecosystem that appears to produce much better results in the recipients. Borody himself is aware of these fecal superdonors, and that might explain why he had such a high success rate in treating ME/CFS with fecal transplant, whereas on the ME/CFS forums I have not seen may patients improve from fecal transplant.

      Dr Kenny De Meirleir’s tested out fecal transplant for ME/CFS, and found this treatment does help, but its benefits only last for around 10 weeks (after which he says the bad bacteria would return).

      So if I were to do a fecal transplant, I would first try to find one of these superdonors, because hopefully that will produce more permanent results. More info about superdonors is give in this post.

  72. Thanks for the link – will check that out.

    Yes. I think its clear that when the etiology is complex or unknown, but there is an indication that an intervention may make a big difference, then a therapeutic trial, assuming the is little chance of doing any lasting harm becomes a valid choice.

    I have also read that many CFS/ME patients who go into remission after FMT relapse again later, which is interesting. But as in many things, your mileage may differ and, as you say, there may be some donors that are better than others. I know the Taylor clinic in the UK – keeps a rigorously tested and cultivated list of donors on its books that they encourage to eat a certain way to improve the microbiota.

    There are sure to be many confounding factors also. for instance what was the diet and lifestyle of people in the cohorts like. it may well be that the host’s diet was a key contributor to their microbiota getting out of whack in the first instance. so even given a new colonization with a near perfect microbiota from a good donor, if they return to their old lifestyle and diet perhaps we should not be so surprised if the effects don’t last (again likely multifactorial) We are all a product of our environment after all.

    All the best

    • I know one patient who went to the Taylor Clinic, spent £4000, but got no benefits. What I would like to see is the success rate figures from the Taylor Clinic for treating ME/CFS with fecal transplants. The fact that they don’t publish them suggests that the success rate is poor (publishing poor results will put off clients, whereas publishing good results attracts clients). Whenever I see any ME/CFS treatment, the first thing I want to know is the success rate.

  73. I posted here a year or two ago, when I first became convinced that I have this virus, whatever it may be. I’m just checking in again to say that I still have it.

    Fortunately, I seem to be one of the “lucky” ones, if you can call it that. I have the chronic mild sore throat and perhaps some of the psychological effects, although they are subtle. I also have noticed some fine skin wrinkles.

    One possibly hopeful experience I can share is that diet and exercise seem to have an effect on this thing. I don’t do anything special with diet and exercise. I just try to eat healthy generally and not pig out. I go to the gym regularly and do a combination of weight training and cardio.

    I had to take a few months off from going to the gym because of the birth of my son. Towards the end of that time, the psychological effects of the virus were certainly not subtle. I felt so down I couldn’t believe it. It really made an impression on me about how much exercise makes a difference. I returned to the gym, and have been going consistently for the past seven or eight months. I feel so much more like myself.

    Anyway, I am going to be trying some probiotics. I have no illusions about them providing a cure, but I am hoping to chip away at this thing and, at the very least, make its survival more difficult.

  74. hi hip.
    I used pau d’arco tea 1 month ago . I have good results still with me today.. I have more strength more happy more social .. I felt like it change my intestinal flora good way….
    only four days back to back . 2 tea bag morning with breakfast 2 tea bag afternoon or evening with food. totally 4 tea bag a day.. minimum 5-8 minutes boil in enough water. be cautious pau d’arco large amount stomach irritant . beside this pretty safe..
    I see you used pau d’arco pills before how to use it. how it effect you. I don’t know if pills and tea make big difference..
    good luck man..

  75. Hi all, I experience a great number of symptoms that I read here and like to share that I have been tested positive for a persistent borna virus infection. The human borna virus disease might explain some of the problems we have, but there’s a lot of controversy regarding this topic, which makes research and treatment hard.
    Concerning chronic infections including sore throat I have found that bacteriophages are very effective. Compared to fecal transplant it’s less invasive and it cost less.

  76. Hi. Please excuse my English.
    What you described is just what i’m going through right now.

    I got flu like symptoms in this September, i thought it was just a common winter cold, but i got bedbound for 2 months, and am slowly getting better.(hoepfully)
    The thing is, my family is very very slowly, but noticeably showing symptoms too – Cold symptoms, but Especially WRINKLY SKIN. And I feel so guilty. All of them say you are too sensitive, so basically they don’t recognize as being contracted by serious viral illness.

    My finger prints are disappeared(I’m 23), huge fat/collagen loss, wrinkles are shown up everywhere, in just a few days. And still have not been recovered.

    Thankfully, i researched overnight, and got Valtrex right after i contract this virus(I thought i had cfs), and have been taking 1500mg a day..for 3 months. I think it helped in some degrees but i think it’s not clearing up my symptoms.

    Anyway I’m glad to find your blog. Though I have one major question personally…

    I’ve been aware of this virus few yrs before, surprisingly,, because i’ve had gut related issue(candida/parasites) for 3 yrs and came across forums that talk about this mysterious virus.(They were cfs forums)

    Do you think candida/paraistes relate to any of this unknown virus?

    +) Also, I’ve seen tha some ppl use t frequency generator/bio resonance therapy like zapper/rife/magnetic pulsar etc and killed viruses(herpes and several).. What do you think about this?

    Thanks for the help.

    • One more to add..
      I had HUGE crash in my joints/muscle. They were cracking popping like hell.
      But they are now gone after I’ve been re-taking Fluconazole+Terbinafine with nearly zero carb diet.
      I was on this protocol for couple months a year ago for my gut issue.

    • Hi. Thank you for the fast reply. I’m living in South Korea, so i think there’s a chance.

      About Chinese HIV like virus – in the article you linked, it says “However, many symptoms do remain indefinitely, including the fatigue, joint pains, gum problems, and skin symptoms.”

      So.. is this something similar to CFS? Have you seen any people who are recovered completely, just like a common cold virus illness? I’m so depressed by the news:(

    • Most of the people with the Chinese virus that I know recovered after 1 or 2 years. They may still have a few minor symptoms, but most of the symptoms disappeared. So given a choice of the Chinese virus or ME/CFS, I would choose the Chinese virus, because very few people with ME/CFS get cured.

  77. Hi guys. I am admin from the unknown std forum – it’s been closed down. I am trying to find out the reasons for this, but hope you don’t mind, Hip, if people post on here for a while. Same as the Chinese forums, many were shut down as sufferers began to mobilise. You couldn’t make this shit up.

    As a victim of the Chinese so-called “HIV-like illness”, I can say that things do not get better after 1 or 2 years, though. The initial crazy symptoms subside, yes, but many others set in. We have infected friends and family, though symptoms vary depending on how it was caught.

    We were beginning to make some progress and hope we still can, but somewhere else. We had posters from dozens of countries around the world and many from China, where this disease is most prevalent. We have investigated many theories but still have no definite answers. A recent poster just found high levels of Pseudonomas Aeruginosa in his blood, a pathogen that can cause endless problems if it gets into the blood stream and COULD be responsible for our illness, but this isn’t proven. Some are testing with Aperiomics, who test for all known pathogens. Together, we will find answers.

    • hello Admin, great to see that it will not be easy to shut us up that easily. I wan’t to thank hip and all on his board for letting us temporarily use their sight for a little while till we can regroup.
      Admin we need to collectively share contact no’s in the event something else happens and I suggest to start sharing email addresses.
      I can be reached at
      please share yours and others you may have
      Francis 01

  78. For those of you wondering, those on the unknownstd forum and beyond have discussed many potential causes of this illness, the lead ones being:

    – Eperythrozoon
    – Pseudonomas aeruginosa
    – Mycoplasma
    – Retrovirus
    – Bartonella
    – Lyme
    – Enterovirus
    – Fungal infection

    As you can see, we have covered every ground – parasitic, fungal, viral and bacterial. Truth me told, no one pathogen fits the bill 100%. The only ‘known’ disease that fits with symptoms and transmission is PA, however it seems unlikely this could be the cause of our sickness. One poster was found to have high levels of it in his blood after testing with Aperiomics (they test for every known pathogen). I’d urge anyone here to test with Aperiomics.

    Some patients have found relief in flagyl, azythromacin, anti retrovirals, anti fungals.

    One thing is clear and that is there is a major cover up mission going on with many forums being closed down for discussing this disease. This illness poses perhaps the greatest threat known to humanity. We must focus on getting research institutions to take up our case.

    • Hi,
      good to have more people here to share their experiences.

      regarding your last post, can you perhaps share with us how many of your members have taken this Aperiomics test – and how many of those have had the infections in the list above identified in their sample?

      your input would be very much appreciated

  79. The unknownstd forum is back open.

    3 people have tested with Aperiomics but we need more in order to make meaningful comparisons. This, we believe, is the best way forward. Too early to talk about any meaningful results.

    Contact if you want to get involved. Only looking for people with the Chinese disease: cracking joints, split tongue, skin wrinkling, chest pains blah fucking blah.

  80. I posted a long list of anti-enterovirus drug and supplement studies here, including Houttuynia cordata.

    However, most of those studies are in vitro, and the antiviral effects may not appear in vivo, because you may not be able to get high enough concentrations of the drug or supplement in the body (because you cannot take oral doses higher than the maximum safe dose).

    • thank you hip.
      I respect your knowledge.
      I hope we as community come up for good news in new year..
      if any body suffering from stomach issues like acid reflux ,heart burn , indigestion
      mastic gum may be good solution . please use empty stomach and mix it with large amount water.
      30 minutes before meals.
      happy healthy days..

  81. Hi Hip, wondering how your progress has been with Oxymatrine and Vitamin D… I have been taking 2,3 or 4 of White Tiger pills daily for many months. Occasional vitamin D, daily Selenium. I can say for sure that, for me, it has shifted some of the symptoms. I don’t notice sore throat in the same way as in past years, though every once in a while, I will still feel the “something isn’t right” feeling in the throat. I can notice a bit more and more consistent energy levels. Less “panic”. Memory maybe better but still not great— still forgetting common words and “grasping” at times. Sleeping a bit better but still interrupted fairly often— on waking I’m still often feeling a head buzz that I find worrying.

    Do you have any observations about taking Oxymatrine in the way you had been? (Several smaller doses per day with D, I believe?)

  82. I’ve never really found any benefit from oxymatrine, even in my experiments taking it with vitamin D3. But oxymatrine works well for some people but not others. The high dose selenomethionine I find consistently helps though.

    One drug worth trying is Epivir 200 to 300 mg daily. Dr Chia thinks this has some antiviral effects against enterovirus, and finds 1 in 3 of his ME/CFS patients respond to it. In my own tests, Epivir did seem to make some very mild improvements, but I don’t think I was one of the lucky 1 in 3 responders. However, you might be.

    Chia is also now using the immunomodulatory drug tenofovir for ME/CFS. Use of this drug requires regular kidney monitoring, and it can make you feel worse initially, so the best thing is to start with low doses and build up. I have not yet properly tried tenofovir. For further info, search the Phoenix Rising forum.

  83. I started with a cold in October, which didn’t go away. It lead to chronically being tired and sore throat/stuffy nose with nasal drip being the most consistent symptom. Its now almost February and still waking up with cough at night and feeling fatigued and tired a lot. Some mild anhedonia, as well as brain fog- reading speed is slowed, short term memory reduced, words on tip of tongue. If I exercise too hard, the cold symptoms come back with a vengeance. Also, burning in eyes and mixing up similar sounding words. I went to immunologist and they said that I have CMV and low IgG levels. Still waiting for further workup and will try to get the ARUP Coxsackie virus labs. I have had to educate my doctors on all of this- they thought it was GERD and I kept telling them that my wife has similar symptoms starting around the same time, there is no way this is GERD. I can’t believe that this virus started circulating in 2004 and in 2017 we don’t know anything about it. I am going to be reaching out to folks in the FDA, NIH and CDC about this. It may not be an immediate threat to life but it has made my life pretty miserable over the past 3 months, and I can’t imagine having it for years on end. If you have any more data on this that are useful for sharing, please email to me to forward on to these public health authorities.

    • Hi Bob. The worsening of symptoms after exercise is a classic sign of chronic fatigue syndrome (aka myalgic encephalomyelitis), known as post-exertional malaise (PEM), so you might want to look into that. ME/CFS is linked to coxsackievirus B as well as herpesviruses like cytomegalovirus, Epstein-Barr virus and HHV-6.

    • Thanks for reinforcing that point, although I would say my fatigue is mild compared to some people I know with ME/CFS. I have told my immunologist but she says it is a normal part of the CMV activation and will go away. My wife has it too. It looks like I am going to have to go outside of the system for a second opinion. That is the only way that my insurance would even possibly pay for all these tests.
      I noticed that you reported you also had a CMV reactivation when you did your bloodwork. I am wondering if the symptom spectrum that some of us experience is related to the cumulative effects of a new Coxsackie B infection combined with being an existing host of CMV, since CMV is thought to cause immunosenescence issues. Does CMV somehow compromise the immune system so that the CVB infection can persist far beyond its normal impact in healthy patients. Of course there would be more patients who have had both, but perhaps we are just the extreme end of the spectrum of response spectrum, like another type of ME/CFS syndrome.

    • Usually only ME/CFS specialist doctors understand these issues related to chronic viral activation; your average infectious disease specialist won’t show much interest. There is a list of good ME/CFS specialist at the bottom of this document:

      There have been no studies I am aware of showing that CMV can compromise the immune system in such a way that allows CVB to persist, but I certainly think that is a possibility.

      Some viruses in the herpesvirus family, like CMV and Epstein-Barr virus, are able to produce their own “fake” version of the human cytokine called IL-10, which is responsible for shifting the immune response away from the required Th1 antiviral mode, and towards the undesired Th2 antibacterial mode. In other words, these viruses make immune signaling substances that can hack into your immune system and alter its functioning. Viruses do this to promote their own survival. This can make it harder control and clear viral infections.

      One of the treatments for CVB ME/CFS used by Dr john Chia is oxymatrine, which is an immunomodulator herb that shifts the immune response back into Th1 mode, where hopefully it will then do a better job fighting off the viral infections. Dr Chia finds that around 30% of his ME/CFS patients with enterovirus infections make major improvements from oxymatrine. Unfortunately I did not respond to this treatment, but it is well worth trying if you have active coxsackievirus B.

      For chronic active cytomegalovirus, ME/CFS doctors often use the drug Valcyte; I have yet to try this drug for my CMV infection. Some patients find this drug hard to tolerate, whereas others find it easy to take.

    • 1. Is it possible that the mental symptoms are just early signs of dementia like frontotemporal dementia? They seem to fit all of the signs of FTD. Could the virus somehow accelerate a pre-existing
      2. Is it possible that the CMV is consuming arginine in the blood vessels to/in brain, which is causing the mental symptoms?
      3. Have you tried monolaurin for this disease? A lot of people seem to recommend it for coated viruses. It seems that it takes a while to build up in the system.

    • The brain fog of ME/CFS can feel a bit like dementia sometimes, but brain fog is quite variable, and will worsen after physical or mental exertion.

      You might like to read the Phoenix Rising ME/CFS forum, which has a wealth of info about ME/CFS.

      I have not come across any CMV – arginine connection.

      I have never really come across any success stories from people using herbal or supplement antivirals, except in the case of the immunomodulator oxymatrine, and also other immunomodulators like inosine.

    • I’ve been taking Equilibrant for about a month and inosine for about 2-3 weeks, along with CoQ10 and ALCAR. I felt generally better but the nose congestion, sore throat, nasal drip come back recurrently esp. when I get tired. Those didn’t seem to help improve further. I started on Taurine and D-Ribose. I read that Taurine is deficient in the gut of people with CFS. D-Ribose is being used as an alternative energy source bypassing normal glucose metabolism. I am definitely feeling more energy although the upper respiratory symptoms persist. Today I took dihydroquercetin twice and although it gives a bit of a buzz, the congestion seems a little better. Nothing else seems to have much impact- I’ve tried all of the Chinese and American herbs. Baicalein seemed to work at first but I read that too much can cause liver damage so am afraid to take too much or too long. St. Johns Wort seemed to help at first but I was worried about developing dependency. This might be because I had CMV as well as suspected Coxsackie B, and SJW is supposed to be effective against lipid coated, so it may have knocked down the CMV a little. I am starting larger amounts of D-Ribose and ordered some glutamine as that seemed to help last time I had this last year when I had swollen lymph nodes (perhaps another Coxsackie with EBV or who knows what now). I am also taking monolaurin for the CMV. My doctor said that the test (done a few weeks ago) showed only IgM against CMV and no IgG. I could not convince him to do Coxsackie testing as he is an immunologist, so I am going to see infectious disease this week to try to persuade them to run Coxsackie and Echo virus tests. The immunologist thought everything was due to CMV but it doesn’t make sense that I would have 0 IgG against it after 3-4 months. I must have had something else like Coxsackie first. Plus I don’t see CMV giving people the upper respiratory syptoms that much. I am amazed at how many adults report harm from Coxsackie online and yet how doctors still don’t even seem to know that it exists, at least in my neck of the woods (a major military medical center).

    • Your test showing only IgM against CMV and no IgG seems strange, but I am no expert. Normally when you first catch an infection, you develop IgM antibodies, and then IgG appears later, once the acute infection is brought under control.

      But it could be that you are still in the acute phase of CMV, having just caught this virus recently. CMV has an incubation period of up to 12 weeks, so is quite slow in terms of getting going. CVB by contrast normally has an incubation period of 3 to 5 days.

    • Latest update:

      Still having stuffy nose, nasal drip, also developed hacking cough. Energy levels a bit better since taking daily fibers, taurine, D-ribose, ALCAR, CoQ10.

      Got infectious disease doc who ran viral tests- waiting for results.

      Still taking equilibrant 4-6/day and inosine 2-3/day but wondering if the only thing in equilibrant that benefits me is selenium. When I recreated the formula in equilibrant from individual components without selenium, I don’t feel the same benefit in symptom reduction. The thought crossed my mind that this could be a very expensive selenium supplement!

      Selenomethionine 200 micrograms daily seems to help most with symptoms but causes fasciculations. I am concerned because there may be a correlation between high selenium soils and ALS incidence. I had BFS in the past and it always freaks me out even though there is reportedly no correlation between BFS and ALS.
      I’m not sure if the fasciculations are due to some sort of motor neuron damage or so-called dye-off of the virus, but given the literature on this I am going to look for an alternative. I am wondering what the mechanism of selenium interaction is with the Coxsackie B virus? Is there something with a similar interaction that is not so toxic to motor neurons?

      NAG seems to give me bad diarrhea even though I am not allergic to shellfish, so I could not sustain long enough to see a benefit.

  84. I sneeze a lot and afterwards I Devwwlope a sore throat accompanied by slight fever . I USUALLY take crocin and Gargle with salt water BUT SYMPTOMS reappear.

  85. Hi. Interesting reading your story. I hope you the ones around you affected is doing ok. I want to ask you if any of these symptoms have gotten better by time. I also wonder if after you got sick if your bloodpressure changed? Have you had any problems with your neck btw? I’ve often wondered if my (for years) chronic fatigue was ME, but then I started hanging with one with ME, it seems it’s not ME I’ve had. Anyways. Last year soon after starting to date this ME-boy, stranger things started happening, and I’ve gotten some of the really weirdly specific symptoms you’ve described, although in comparison there are some I haven’t.

    I’ve often wondered if there are some unknown viruses behind many of the ME cases. I definitively see why you’ve settled on an enterovirus-theory. I see you undergo quite the supplements regime, and are getting a lot of suggestions on the comments as well. I hope some of it at least have helps you, I can imagine the expensiveness of it all. I’m also curious as to wether you’ve tried any non-edible aids that have helped? Myself for the fatigue, the only thing that’s really effective is some forms of qigong (taijiwuxigong especially), It can take some years to really learn it though. Also, could somehow stimulating the vagus nerve maybe help you, at least with general resilience? (vagus stimulation is supposed to be one of the keys behind the effectiveness of systems like yoga (and probably qigong). Have you tried it?

  86. Hi Mark and Hip, and all,

    I have a similar illness and I have been trying many things, including flagyl, azythromycin and antifungals which helped. I have been reading PubMed a lot and I have come to a theory that such an illness may be caused by a bacterium from genus Mycobacterium, most likely it’s a strain of Mycobacterium paratuberculosis. This one seems to fit everything. According to research, it is sensitive to azythromycin, metronidazole (flagyl) and -azole antifungals which is very unusual for a bacterium. It is the only one which is sensitive to antifungals.
    It is also sensitive to oregano oil, cinnamon, guava, black cumin seed oil. You may try those and see the reaction.
    The thick mucus may come from the unusual thick cell wall of Mycobacteria.

    Importantly, mycobacteria are known to infect connective tissue throughout the body which may explain the presence of symptoms throughout the body without a considerable damage to organs. (In other words, they infect the lining of muscles, intestine, heart, brain, lungs, etc).

    And, Mycobacteria can be transmitted by air. Also, some people may already have a lot of other, friendlier mycobacteria in their connective tissue before the arrival of The Chronic Sore infection, and as the body starts to attack the new one, it also starts to attack the old bacteria, as they are similar. This may explain why various symptoms develop so quickly. And this may be the basis of the “autoimmune” aspect of CFS.

    Also, Mycobacterium paratuberculosis may be the cause of Crohn disease and diabetes mellitus. If some of your friends or family developed these after you got the CFS, this may be indicative of the Mycobacterium infection.

    (These facts may be found on PubMed, sorry for not providing the concrete references here, I’m not feeling well…)

    • This is closest to my findings as well. Once I felt “reset” like case when I kissed GF that I left when all of this started, but we may had different bacteries in our bodies. What is your suggested treatment?

  87. Hi Alex, I can’t comment on your case, but the infection I caught has an incubation period of 12 hours, whereas the incubation period of Mycobacterium paratuberculosis is several months to years. So it could not be this bacterium that I caught.

  88. Hello Hip

    I am 24 polish.
    I was looking for a treatment for a few years, finally I found this website a couple weeks ago. I bought selenomethionine at first, it cured my brainfog and fatigue in 1 day, I felt so much better. After 1 week of taking this, I decided to buy NAG, I took it and my sinus cogestion was gone in a few houres. Now I started Vitamin B2, I clearly feel more motivation.

    Hip, I would like to thank you very much, you helped me and my family (I started the treatment my mother, she feels significantly better too)

    In that case, could you recommend me another medication which I can slowly add? :)


    • Hi David

      Glad the selenomethionine and NAG worked for you and your mother. Those really are the best treatments I have found, and I still take them every day.

      Piracetam is another good treatment for brain fog, and oxymatrine is worth trying, as it works for some people to boost the immune response to help clear viral infection. It did not work for me, unfortunately, but oxymatrine only provides major improvements in around 30% of ME/CFS patients.

    • Hello again Hip

      I thought that my brainfog is completely gone after selenomethionine, but now I am trying Piracetam, it works like a charm. I’ve never been in such a good “mind-shape”. Yet I couldn’t get oxymatrine, I suppose it is not common drag. I hope I will order it soon, I keep searching.

      I have one question. After taking NAG my skin on eyebrows and between them is flaking big time and its itching, is that normal? My mom has the same problem, but not on the same place. It’s not really annoying, so I ignore that, but I am still looking for answer.

      Thanks Hip, and sorry if there is an answer on your website. I read most of your website, also tried to read all comments, but its not very effective :).


    • Hi David

      NAG reduces the Th17 immune response which is responsible for keeping Candida under control, so possibly the itching is due to Candida.

  89. Can this be a virus that sticks to sinus mucosa and gut mucosa and it slow releasing in the blood? Have you ever done a virusology test on your sinus mucosa?


  90. Hallo. Thank you for your blog. I found it after searching chronic soar throat. Your information is very valuable to me and might help me with early diagnosis. My father is law was admitted to hospital end of November last year. I went with my mother in law to support them. Given that we didn’t have dinner at home, we ate toasted sandwiches at the hospital cafeteria. I still don’t know why I decided on a savory mince filling instead of cheese (which my mother in law had). That night I threw up violently and put it down to mild food poisoning. Ever since then I’ve had a soar throat. Initially I put it down to stomach juice fro throwing up which burned my throat, but it just never got better, even though I’m a healthy individual with no medical problems. My whole family got a gastric virus while on holiday over Christmas and I started work in January feeling very tired and low. Given that my father in law passed away early in Jan, again I put it down to stress caused by bereavement. It is mid Feb and I feel chronically tired. I cannot get out of bed in the mornings and would sleep half the day if I could. I had a bad cold 3 weeks ago and again the soar throat is not gone completely. My constant fatigue is killing me, I don’t feel like doing anything and I’m emotionally very numb. I also have noticeable short term memory loss (I used to be nicknamed ‘elephant brain’ due to my acute memory) I have not had too bad a stomach, but I pass a lot of gas, feel bloated and struggle to loose weight. I tried to start and exercise program 3 weeks ago but stopped after I got that bad bout of flu. Reading your post makes me think I possibly contracted this enterovirus from that hospital sandwich…. and there’s no real cure?? What do you suggest i do now? I’ve been to my GP this week and she ran some blood tests (full blood count, thyroid and hormone), but awaiting results…

    • I hav tried it for a short time with no effect, but often in ME/CFS you need to take antivirals for many months before even the first signs of improvement appear. I am currently trialing tenofovir, as this has been used to good effect in ME/CFS, most likely due to its immunomodulatory effects.

  91. Hi. I feel I have both a chronic sore throat and the mood issues you described. I felt the psychosis in the first month and now a low grade anxiety or flatness will accompany the sore throat. But the sore throat comes and goes in three week cycles (though stress can shorten the window). Did you also experience the cycles? It’s like an outbreak and then a dormant period.

  92. Hip have you ever considered the possibility that this may be some form of fungal infection that can be transmitted by skin contact. It has been suggested that skin pathogens are virtual dark matter but some research is uncovering what we may have on our skin. I have had some form of issue going o for quite some time. All my family have symptoms and people in work environments also caught this. However in my case I don’t think it was respiratory or nasal secretions. I initially thought it was viral per se with little argument. Some events in which people have caught this do not suggest normal viral transmission at all unless it is very stable and can survive of objects outside the human body on inanimate objects. For a moment consider some sort of fungal pathogen that can be transmitted to another by skin contact, disseminated dermal fall out and or ingestion. Could such a pathogen start a cascade of allergy responses and find a way to nullify part of the hosts immune system to thrive?

  93. I developed ME/CFS from the pathogen, and no fungal infections are linked to ME/CFS, whereas several viruses and one or two bacteria are linked to ME/CFS. Coxsackievirus B from an infected person can survive quite happily on surfaces such as tables or telephones.

    Your pathogen could be different to the one described on this website. It’s possible that most people posting here all have different infections.

  94. In all this time how was your sinus immunity when you got a flu or something like that. I cleans up by itself with good flow and pus after that, or it gets dry with no defense after that?
    Sorry for my english.


    For the past 3 months I have been living in a moldy room in a old house in UK. Each night my need for wc was imminent. With loose stools. After I have bought a air purifier with tio2 and low GI foods with low heat processing and fish proteins with no grains, and other measures I can confirm that my health is doing better.
    If I leave the window open at night, next 2 days my health is down. I also use diluted soda bicarbonate to clean my nose a little with salt. This sensitivity to mold and mycotoxins opens our defensive system to viruses in the nose.

    • I had a look at the other tread on thyroid hormones and was surprised that the neither the original authors or the tread contributors seem to be aware that systemic chronic inflammation leads to metabolic disturbances that upset the balance of many of the bodies hormones. This causes shift in the normal ratio’s of
      Things like T3 and reverse T3, active 25-OH Vitamin D and it’s reverse form and probably many others.
      These effects are therefore clearly downstream of the event causing the inflammation in the first place.
      Interestingly however, they may also play a role in the persistence of illness for the sufferer, as these disturbances hinder the bodies return to homeostasis, particularly in the immune system. Thyroid levels effect the effectiveness of immune cells to fight infection, circulation, body temperature regulation etc and Vitamin D acts as an immuno-regulatory hormone which helps regulate inflammation and auto-immunity.
      In short it seems the authors are looking at effect not cause. And there is actually very little new proffered.

  96. I just want to add that you must use uv-c lamp from tio2 filter when you are not in that room. I observed some adverse effects. Anions only when you are in that room.

    • Interesting, I have not come across cyclovirus previously. In humans it seems to be associated with paraplegia and lower respiratory infection. But there is very little published research on human infections at present.

    • Yes. But from the few papers available, it seems that this virus is a monster. A kind of a supervirus. It is capable to cross the species barriers (humans, swines, chickens and flies) and the blood barrier. It can infect several organs. And was detected in serum, stool, cerebrospinal fluid and nasopharyngeal aspirates.

    • I am not sure those characteristics makes the virus a “monster” or a “supervirus”. Lots of everyday viruses can infect multiple organs and enter the CNS. Even herpes simplex 1, the cold sore virus that people have around their lips, can enter the brain, and in fact is found in the brains of Alzheimer’s patients, and one theory suggests that herpes simplex 1 may cause Alzheimer’s.

      But cyclovirus is definitely a virus to keep an eye on, as it might well be connected to neurological disease. Only further research will tell.

  97. Hello
    Please i need suport and advice. I have been suffering from chronic Sour throut for many years . I have basically experience all the symptoms I read in the article above and still experiencing more and more chronic version of the symptoms . I have done many viral tests and have all proven negative. I’m sure I may be suffering from this virus.
    This is the first time I learn about this virus and would like to be help on how to handle this issue that have refused me feeling well for many years.
    Please i really need advice on what to do urgently

    Many thanks.

  98. Dear Hip
    Many thanks for your reply and adviced
    Can I take the drugs without being tested ?
    Any further advice . I am in Africa and pharmacies May refuse selling the drugs without test.
    Thanks so much
    Kind regards

    • It’s mostly supplements that are listed on the treatments page. You can take these without any tests. It is only N-acetyl-glucosamine and selenium that I found made a big improvement.

  99. Did anyone of you tried beta glucan to see if it helps? I read this blog for some time now, suffering from same disease.

  100. hi, i have been diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder with ocd. i also have increased weight gain from antipsychotic invega sustenna and other med depakote. i do not have sore throat or any wound healing issues. i do have trouble falling asleep without low dose 0.3 mg melatonin. i am always drowsy, no energy even before weight gain. i came accross anhedonia term after googling about pain in penis erection. i believe i have sexual anhedonia with emotional anhedonia of just feeling blunted emotions all my life. would the recommended meds Very low-dose amisulpride 12.5 to 25 mg , along with amitriptyline 10 mg daily. High-dose allicin 6 x 180 mg daily helps to combat the blunted emotions help me. what about the supplements, would yeast-free selenomethionine and N-acetyl-glucosamine and any other supplents help me. would these be able to replace and possibly wean me off invega sustenna antipsychotic med with my dr in future? anyone know what meds and supplements help with male sexual anhedonia. any comments appreciated

    • The baking soda article is interesting but the abstract is a bit sparse on specifics e.g. Dosing, timing etc.

      Does anyone have a link to the full article or more information around it.

  101. Just wanted to thank you for your classic thread on NAG, which pops up everywhere. It completely changed my life and my whole family’s. Seriously, thank you!

    • Hi Jared, glad to hear that you benefited from NAG. Did you develop anxiety disorder after catching an infection, like the one described on this website, or di you anxiety symptoms appear without any apparent cause?

  102. It’s hard to say how prevalent it might be, but it is possible that it has spread quite a bit, and is causing increased mental health problems in the population.

    I read about one survey that found children as young as four are suffering from mental health problems such as panic attacks, eating disorders, anxiety and depression. That makes me wonder whether my virus, which was prone to triggering anxiety and depression, might be in part responsible.

  103. Not at all. how you know is a virus? what doctor, professor, biologist,etc.told you ? or you just presume?

    • The same way as you know that fever in most cases is caused by a virus. Do doctors test for a virus when a patient walks in with fever and sore throat? No, because it’s not necessary.

  104. Hip

    How long have you been doing allicin? Anyone else you encountered that have improved their lack of emotion by using it?

    I might give it a go. My only thing is most supplements seem to work initially then stop. Like you I initially responded well to florinef then it stopped working. I remember being at a friend’s house for dinner and having a certain pleasure in conversing something that I hadn’t had for years.

    I am having some success using light therapy on my kidneys and liver. The feeling is one of becoming alive – a definite sense of energy moving in my body. The devices are quite cheap – i use infrared and also redlight device. So far promising. The following link has some experiments people are carrying out as there isn’t that much info on it yet.

  105. I have not used allicin for a while, but when I was using it, it did seem to consistently boost emotions (I was taking 9 x 180 mg capsules daily). Whereas most other supplements only provided a transient boost for literally just a few hours before they stopped working. It’s a bit expensive at that dose level, but I recently bought a large box of allicin to test it again, which I will soon. I don’t know of anyone else who has tried it for boosting emotions.

    I tried infrared LED light therapy on my head, but it did not do much, apart from providing a slight increase in conscious awareness (see this post).

  106. Thanks for the link Hip.

    Maybe try the ir light on your mid back around kidney area and both sides for about 1 minute. I notice if I do light therapy for long I have paid a couple times with extra fatigue. When used right I initially feel just a subtly pleasant tingling but it gets stronger during the day as does the sense of well being. I get what the Chinese would call kidney chi. At times I even belly laugh and get teary. Hopefully this will continue to last. I also use redlight over eyes and it takes the sting out of obsessive thoughts. I use redlight mini from the redlightman.

    I will have to try the allicin thanks for the heads up. I have gotten tremendous relief using cromolyn spray for eye and nose irritation. I mainly spray it in the eyes recently. My eyes don’t burn, sting and itch and the benefits seem to extend to a mental level.


  107. Btw Hip

    Have you measured your temperature regularly? – the stop the thyroid madness guys reckon it should be a tad over 37c.

    • Not recently, but I just did it now, and the temp under my tongue is 36.2 ºC, which is within the normal range given by the Mayo Clinic here. Last time I checked, my thyroid hormones were fine. I’ve also tried taking supplemental T3, around 20 mcg daily, just to see if it might improve energy levels, but I did not notice much.

  108. Thanks Hip. You are very giving despite the trying circumstances.

    Some people have gotten permanent improvements with the temperature reset. The OP reckons keeping very warm at night is the one constant that continues to help him (see second link below). Some of the posters in the thread reckoned nothing helped lift temps (including ndt) except this. I know I feel better when i get out of sauna and my temps are always higher. In any case attempting the reset doesn’t have to cost anything and could possibly lead to helping cfs caused by a variety of circumstances.

    • Thanks for the links, Jamo77. I will try sleeping with some clothes on tonight, and see if it helps. I always have cold hands and feet, but I tend to think that’s due to a blood circulation and vasoconstriction problem (eg, not enough eNOS and nitric oxide to vasodilator the blood vessels).

  109. Cool Hip

    That guy on the Peat forum seems to sleep quite hot. Last couple of weeks since trying I find I shed a lot of stuff during the night so my body doesn’t like the extra warmth. The key seems to be to get very warm without sweating and for the body to be use to it.

    I see you use methylation vitamins. I am following some of Chris Masterjohns ideas of egg yolks, liver, certain green veggies and also creatine – according to Masterjohn the body uses methylfolate to make creatine hence it doesn’t need as much folate when taking creatine.

  110. I have something like this. I was diagnosed with a h. pylori infection it seems like the skin issue started a year before i was diagnosed. i don`t have the sore throat but everything else i got. its spread to family and friends every bodys trying to figure out what is going on

  111. Hello everybody.I come back for two years,and i fell better now by taking some Chinese medicine. If someone remember i am a Chinese.I want to provide some other symptoms that i think have relation to this virus. fingernail got many vertical fingernail got more red,and the red color is not uniform,usually at the top of fingernail got more red the top of every fingernail has a white area, i mean the color is shallow red.4.My body got large many red points everywhere. My doctor say that is hemangioma and it has no influence with my healthy, but they are so many more than normal level. I want to say all these symptoms means that my blood circulation still has problems. Now i only have one symptoms that make me fell uncomfortable is my stomach, and my doctor of Chinese medicine say stomach is most important to us.So keep our stomach healthy and make inspection regularly. Good luck and i will keep attention to this virus.

  112. Hey Hip,

    Thank you so much for posting all this information and for being a resource for myself and others!

    I believe I contacted this (or something like this) some 9 months ago while sharing drinks up in the Portland, OR / Yakima, WA area. I found the “Chinese Virus” page first, which scared the shit out of me, but this page has definitely helped with understanding & knowing that someone has been battling this for a long time.

    Per your site, I started taking Selenium & NAG, as well as Monolaurin & Zinc ~ 1 month ago. I think that combination has helped quite a bit. Anxiety is down, and really the biggest symptom is this chronic sinusitus I’ve had the last 5 months (which has gotten better in a 2-step-forward/1-step-back).

    The last 2 weeks I’ve also incorporated Gluten-Free eating (per @Garz comment above) & Probiotics (per some reading on CFS I’ve done – I feel this has also improved my overall health.

    Question – have you explored Gluten-Free diets and/or Probiotics as a treatment option?

    Also, with the people you know who have gotten this, how many have “gotten better”, “maintained/plateau’d”, “gotten worse”?


  113. Probiotics and especially prebiotics helped quite a bit in my worst years with the virus, when anxiety was sky high, and I had not yet discovered NAG. I posted a thread about it here. I was already gluten free for years even before catching this virus. I am currently considering this diet.

    In terms of getting better, worse, or remaining the same, I’d say that the worse physical and mental symptoms hit in the first year or so with the virus. This is when things like heart attacks or severe generalized anxiety disorder would hit. Some would then improve after a year ot two, and then reach some stable level, where for example their anxiety was brought under control.

    There is no progressive worsening with this virus. It’s not some terminal illness that gets worse and worse. But for those affected by it to some degree or other, it does not seem to get better either. I know some people that have become social recluses after catching this virus, due to developing a mental state that cannot deal with any stress, and due to other mental issues. These people do not seem to improve, they remain stable in that condition, but have major lifestyle changes to accommodate their desire for reclusion.

    • Thanks again, Hip!

      I forgot to mention that ~2-3 months ago I’ve tested positive for EBV early antigen (43.20) & Coxsackie B5 Antibodies (1:8). I was tested for Coxsackie based on this site.

    • That coxsackievirus B test you took was not at ARUP Lab, and so unfortunately the results are not really reliable. (ARUP use a scale of 1:10, 1:20, 1:40, whereas you results where 1:8, so that’s not ARUP).

      It’s only ARUP that is sensitive enough to detect chronic enterovirus infections.

  114. A well done site. I have a similar educational background to you and run a wordpress site for Post-SSRI Sexual Dysfunction (PSSD). I’ve been uncertain if PSSD has the same etiology as sexual dysfunction while on the drugs, or if it’s different (maybe something bacterial or viral). A lot of patients present with symptoms like you describe: New or worsened mental illness, loss of libido, anhedonia, changed response to medications. One sufferer found an H. Pylori stomach infection that when treated removed his symptoms. I’m wondering if you have seen any crossover in people with a mystery virus like this and taking a medication? The thought being that it’s either coincidental timing or the medication does something immunologically that lets the organism run rampant.

    I applaud and sympathize with your work as being a bright light in a dark abyss of under-researched medical conditions.

  115. Hi ghostpssd, that’s an interesting site you have, I will have to have a good look at it.

    I have not really looked into the biochemistry post-SSRI sexual dysfunction, or post-SSRI emotional blunting (blunt affect), but am aware of these conditions. After my experience with the the mental symptoms like anxiety, anhedonia, blunted affect, depression, etc precipitated by the virus described on this website, it did occur to me that the sexual dysfunction and emotional blunting that are reported to occur during and after antidepressant use might not actually be due to the drugs themselves, but to an underlying physical condition such as chronic low-level infection (of the brain and/or other organs) — a condition that caused the depression in the first place.

    Or at least it’s possible that in a subset of people with post-antidepressant sexual dysfunction or emotional blunting, their condition may be due to an underlying physical condition like infection rather than the drug. Or another possibility is that it is the antidepressant drug in combination with the underlying physical condition that leads to these long-lasting reported side effects of antidepressants.

    I just found this paper, which looks at the rates of sexual dysfunction reported in different antidepressants. Table 1 shows SSRIs and SNRIs come out as the drugs most frequently associated with sexual dysfunction, with rates of sexual dysfunction up to 70%. By comparison, TCAs are at 30% and MAOIs at 40%. Although interestingly, one MAOI drug, moclobemide, had a low rate of just 3.9%.

    So that does suggest that the drugs themselves are playing at least some role, as if the sexual dysfunction were just down to the underlying physical condition, you would expect rates of sexual dysfunction to be similar for all antidepressants (unless of course the sexual dysfunction were entirely due to the underlying physical condition, but some antidepressants are actually protective against sexual dysfunction appearing as a result of the physical condition, which might explain the different rates of sexual dysfunction on different antidepressants).

    It would be good to find a study which compared rates of sexual dysfunction in depressed people who were not given antidepressant drugs, to those who were.

    If we consider the hypothesis of an underlying physical condition like infection being the cause of the sexual dysfunction and emotional blunting (rather than, or in addition to, the antidepressant drugs), and question what sort of mechanism might cause these mental symptoms, then brain inflammation I think would be a prime candidate. There’s new research that has appeared in recent years showing that neuroinflammation may be the cause of various mental health conditions, including depression, bipolar, OCD and schizophrenia. So there is a whole new avenue of research looking at the role of the immune system in mental health conditions and mental symptoms.

    So clearly if someone picked up a pathogen that can cause a chronic low level brain infection, that’s going to cause persistent brain inflammation, which may then lead to various mental symptoms, depending on where in the brain the infection lies.

    But the infection does not have to be located in the brain to cause brain inflammation. It’s now understood that infection and inflammation in the body peripheries (like the stomach or intestines) can also trigger neuroinflammation. The main mechanism for this remote triggering of brain inflammation is the vagus nerve, which runs from all the organs in the torso to the brain. When the vagus senses any inflammation in the peripheral organs, it will signal this to the brain, and the brain will then ramp up its own internal levels of immune activation (ie, inflammation) in response. This I imagine is probably done as a cautionary action, to put the brain on immune alert, in order to try to protect the brain from any infection that happens to be in the body, until the immune system clears the infection from the body. But if that infection becomes chronic, then you may get persistent brain inflammation and associated mental symptoms.

    So this is how peripheral infection and inflammation can trigger brain inflammation (a nice paper on this is here).

    In fact, this process of mental symptoms appearing in response to infection even in the peripheries of the body has got a name: it’s called sickness behavior. So this is probably the reason the person with Helicobacter pylori experienced remission from sexual dysfunction after this bacterial infection was treated.

    My virus, coxsackievirus B, which is a common virus, is a good candidate for causing chronic low level infection in the brain and body, as this virus can transform within the host into an aberrant type of “smoldering” infection called a non-cytolytic infection, which the immune system finds almost impossible to eradicate.

    It may be that some antidepressants, although they beneficially act on the serotonin, dopamine and norepinephrine systems, actually worse brain inflammation, and so could have negative effects as a result, even if their effects on these neurotransmitters is positive.

    I’ve read in some articles that SSRI’s increase brain inflammation, so that might be a bad thing if you have already got some some degree of chronic brain inflammation due to a low level infection in your body or brain. Though I’ve also read contradictory information, saying SSRI’s lower brain inflammation (however inflammation is a somewhat vague term; it means activation of the immune system, usually in an undesirable way; but there are many parts of the immune system, and the immune system may be boosted some areas and suppressed others by a drug or supplement).

    In fact when I tried the SSRI citalopram some years ago, when my mental symptoms were worse than they are now (and thus I think my brain inflammation was higher at that time), within 2 hours of taking just one pill, I experienced a hideous increase in depression levels, and a dramatic rise in suicidal ideation. This then wore off as the drug left my body over the next 24 hours.

    I suspect this worsening of depression on a SSRIs may well be due to the drug ramping up brain inflammation. I’d like to see some research on teenage suicides when using SSRIs: I wonder if those who commit suicide do so because the SSRIs actually worsened their depression, as they did with me? And wonder whether this worsening of depression might mainly occur in people with higher levels of persistent brain inflammation to start with, due to the SSRI further increasing that neuroinflammation.

    Have you tried the antidepressant drug amantadine? Even at low dose of around 50 mg daily, I find this improves libido within a few days; it improves the dopaminergic sexual desire. Amantadine has been shown to increase populations of dopamine D2 receptors.

    I also listed some other drugs and supplement which increase dopamine receptor expression in this post. I’ve tried some of these, but I seem to get the best libido effect from amantadine.

  116. Hi Hip,

    I think I may have the same virus, or something very similar. I dealt with the very anxious phase for 2-3 months, but soon brought it (mostly) under control when I realized the virus was causing it and was determined not to allow it cause this (maybe it feeds off the energy as viruses do?).

    In any case, I started thinking about the symptoms that connect my family members: lots of skin issues such as increased sunburn, increased pigmentation spots, easier wounds and slower healing, various unusual rashes – coupled with the fact that I had lost 15 pounds during the acute phase and had Ketones in my urinalysis.

    I realized that our bodies for some reason burned most of the subcutaneous layer of fat which cases all the aforementioned issues.

    But I am not sure why. My thoughts are either (a) that’s where an infection was and the body tried to flush it or (b) the body switched to burning fat due to an acquired insulin resistance, due to a hormone change or autoimmune attack on organs like the Pancreas.

    The mood changes, sexual dysfunction and skin issues (assuming they relate to the loss of subcutaneous fat) all seem to relate to a hormone issue, I believe in the Limbic system.

    Do you agree and do you have any thoughts on this? Think it provides any clues?

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